eBay

lady.stark · ‎12-23-2015

Here are some facts about this transaction I recently had:

- a buyer sends me a Best Offer on an item

- I thought it was too low, so I counter-offered with just a note saying this was the lowest price I would accept if bought alone

- buyer refused the counter-offer and I thought that was it

However, a few days later, buyer chose to buy the item after all. How can a buyer do that after refusing the counter-offer? I do not know... I did not think it was possible...? Anyway, he buys and he pays after I sent him my invoice. I don't know why, but I had a bad feeling on this transaction from the start... I should have trusted my gut, but I shipped anyway.

This afternoon, buyer sends a message telling me that he received the picture today and that it has a bent corner and a crease below the signature. I reply with my apologies and ask for a picture of the damage. I also mention that if he is not satisfied, he can send back for a full refund.

He replies that he cannot send pictures because it is hard to take a picture of a crease (as a side note, this is true, but when it happened to me, I was always able to take some good pictures under the right light). He also says that he won't spend anymore money on this picture and that he will keep it but will leave negative feedback.

I reported him through the "Report a buyer" button, because he left a LOT of negative feedbacks in the last month. I have a feeling it is not the first time he does this kind of thing... but from this point on, what else can I do? I did not reply to his last message yet. Will wait for your advice before doing anything. Thanks!

dmil8030 · ‎12-23-2015

Hello 'lady.stark',

I am not presuming to offer 'advice', - others here will do that better than me, but I do believe 3 things,

1) that the "Report" button on anything is quite useless, and

2) that you may need to call ebay to report him if he has left a lot of negatives for others, and

3) that your buyer thought he found a way to get the item for his lower price after all.

If he leaves you a negative when you have offered 'return for refund' which he declines, and you have asked for

photos of the damage, which he refuses, -- I suspect he is trying to extort a freebie out of you.

Keep your emails polite and if he leaves a negative after you have tried to work with him, you can get it removed.

I know you will have seen this link oodles of times, but as a refresher

http://pages.ebay.ca/help/policies/feedback-removal.htm

In this link is says that ebay can remove the feedback if "A buyer has shown a pattern of leaving disproportionately

high rates of low Feedback or low detailed seller ratings."

If he leaves a negative, ebay will see the emails and know that you are trying to work with the buyer who is doing nothing

but threatening your seller status. He will soon find out that he is not allowed to do that, even if no one has challenged

him in the past.

Based on your description it seems clear that when you declined the buyer's initial offer, he simply figured he knew

a way to get it for his lower price. I suspect anyone at ebay will see this as well. Sure, you can refund if you want,

but if it were me, I would not. "Return for refund", -- and I would get the negative removed.

Scammers like this should be shut down, not placated. But that's just my opinon.

zee-chan-jpn-books · ‎12-23-2015

I'm sorry to hear about this. I'd follow rose-dee's advices and call eBay.

And for future reference, I always check the feedback history of buyers who make best offers. If the buyer made a low ball offer AND has a tread of leaving lots of negs for other sellers, I automatically decline their offer and block them. I don't have a lot of extra time to deal with potential issues and some sales are just not meant to be. That's one of the big reasons why I have best offer on all my listings. I only counter-offer (or if the offered price is acceptable I'll just accept) if they have a good feedback history left for others.

momcqueen · ‎12-23-2015

I think that by him telling you that he intends to leave negative feedback, you are able to later apply to have it removed as it implies extortion.

Insist he return it for a refund and tell him that whatever creases or damage he has to show you by proof of photo is so that you can appeal to the postal carrier to make amends on the damage which can only have occurred in transit. I think this is one of the instances where if he opens a Returns case, it will work in your favour. Insist he open a case. This strikes me as a buyer who is trying to fly under the radar for whatever it is that he doing or attempting to do.

That Report a Buyer form leads nowhere that I can tell. It's a placebo. Wait until midday on a weekday and call ebay Customer Service to Report a Buyer.

On another note, I have my own strange case unfolding where a buyer in the USA who is a seller of unrelated matters bought something from me which I upgraded to tracked at my own cost. The item was mailed as per the ebay/payapl address to a location which is, as it turns out, undeliverable. Tracking says it's being sent back to me. I've sent the buyers messages about this twice, once each a week apart as tracking indicated it was undeliverable and is now at a postal hub awaiting shipment back to me, neither of which were acknowledged. As if that wasn't enough, this seller leaves ONLY negative feedback for every purchase they have made with this account of theirs. Feedback left for buyers aside, they leave only negatives for the sellers from whom they have bought.

Now what?

lady.stark · ‎12-23-2015

Hi 'dmil8030',

I also think the buyer is fishing for a partial refund that would bring him back to the first price he wanted to pay, because he also added that the envelope does not show any damage, so it was not damaged in the mail.

I wonder if it would be a good idea to offer him to pay return shipping upon delivery if he uses First Class Mail International. I could mention it includes Delivery Confirmation. Would that be a good idea?

I tried to click on the link you provided, but it does not work... 😞

-----------------------

Hi 'zee-chan',

I did check his feedback left, but the negatives were not all there when I first looked. There were some negatives and neutrals, but they were left over 6 months ago, so I thought he just went through a bad buying streak (which can happen to anyone, because it happened to me in the past too). Other negatives were added very recently.

-----------------------

Hi 'mj',

I guess I could tell him that (about the pictures), but that would not be true since I shipped the photo by Light Packet. There is no insurance on these packages, so I do not feel comfortable writing this if it is not the case. And since he says there is no damage to the envelope...

momcqueen · ‎12-23-2015

Hmmmm. Ask for a photo of the envelope too.

Tell him to Return for a Full Refund, I think, with the promise to refund his shipping costs once it is back in your hands. If you forward those funds ahead of time, he's likely to treat it as a partial and you'll be left with negative feedback regardless and no item returned while if he opens a case as he should if there is really a problem with the transaction, you'll be able to ask ebay to step in to shine the full light on this. I believe this is one of those times when it would benefit you, as seller, to have a case opened for Return so that ebay is able to moderate. If you think about it, it's a bit funny that only a buyer can request that if a problem is raised with a transaction after a product is received.

It's a tough spot for a seller to be in, that's for sure.

I still think you must call ebay to ask them to look at his recent activity as it sounds to me like you are not the only seller that faces his recent wrath. Sometimes, a slightly unscrupulous buyer will find a tactic that works on a seller or two and then try it with each one until a stop is put to it. I don't think anyone really means to be mean to other people, they likely just think they are more deserving of money or items or success than is someone else. It's a slippery slope.

jersey..authentix · ‎12-23-2015

I do understand your concern, but so far you only have a gut feeling. Just stay polite, Maybe wish him merry Christmas or something. ( Cant Hurt to try) . At least you show him your a good guy. Do what's is fair.

You don't know for sure that his thought originally is the get money off the item. Maybe what he is telling you is true.

If he does try to get something off this item then maybe its worth it , just to end it. If he persists, try to get him to say in the email that he will give you a bad feedback if you don't abide by his demands.

You may be all worried for nothing

momcqueen · ‎12-23-2015

That is also good advice. Perhaps we are all looking too quickly to see the worst possible outcome.

dmil8030 · ‎12-23-2015

Hi again, 'lady.stark',

Sorry, - I did a bad chop job and left off the last "l". This should work:

http://pages.ebay.ca/help/policies/feedback-removal.html

<< I wonder if it would be a good idea to offer him to pay return shipping upon delivery if he uses First Class Mail

International. I could mention it includes Delivery Confirmation. Would that be a good idea? >>

As in all these predicaments, you will ultimately have to make your own decision. You will have to live with the

consequences, so you must be the one to decide.

I would not give him any money until he returned it and I had it back in my hand. I would expect the negative

and get it removed when it appeared. He might damage it before mailing it back, but he wouldn't cheat me on

the price. I can't stand these deceptive conniving sneak-thieves. . . . But that's me.

If you send money in advance, ostensibly for postage, you will never see the item again and you will have given

him the discount he wants. Based on your recounting of the story, it is his own bad behaviour that causes me to

think so ill of him. He is not acting like someone who is truly aggrieved.

And you might end up with a negative or neutral anyway.

To get the negative removed you have offered enough: You offered 'Return for a full refund'. He declined,

saying he wants to keep the item.

You asked to see photos of the damage. He refused, and instead saying he wants to keep the item but still

threatens negative feedback. He refuses to make any effort to back up his assertion that the item is damaged.

Ebay will see all this when you call to get the negative removed.

Someone else might say it is easier to just give him the money. If you feel that way then do it.

In a case like this where it is so obvious that he wants the item for his initial offer price, I would be disinclined

to acquiesce, - but you must do whatever works best for you.

It is not my money, it is not my selling record, and therefore cannot be my decision.

However it goes, I sure do wish you well with it.

zee-chan-jpn-books · ‎12-23-2015

Oops, I have no idea why I said rose-dee's advice when it was dmil8030 who posted before me. Must be because I was reading multiple threads at the same time. My apologies.

To lady.stark: I'm picky and I block almost everyone who left more than a few negatives even if the negatives are over a year old. Though sometimes I'd also check out the seller who got the negative to see if it's somebody who consistently got negatives...

Anyhow, hopefully this will turn out okay for you.

lady.stark · ‎12-23-2015

@jersey..authentix wrote:
I do understand your concern, but so far you only have a gut feeling. Just stay polite, Maybe wish him merry Christmas or something. ( Cant Hurt to try) . At least you show him your a good guy. Do what's is fair.

You don't know for sure that his thought originally is the get money off the item. Maybe what he is telling you is true.

The Christmas message is a very good idea. I will use it. 🙂

As for telling the truth... how could this be? He says the envelope is fine, but the picture has creases and is bent. It was in perfect condition when I sent it. I even put the picture in a strong plastic top loader with a strong cardboard. All taped together to avoid friction in the envelope. If it was damaged in the mail, the envelope would show signs of wear or at least signs of bending.

I think I will try the offer of refunding his shipping money (to send picture back), but only after I receive the picture of course. We'll see how he will respond. I will keep you informed, and in the meantime, I thank you all for your great input and wish you Happy Holidays 😉

femmefan1946 · ‎12-24-2015

As for telling the truth... how could this be?

Well - basically because he is a lying liar who lies. And also wears asbestos pants so they can't catch fire.

To get the negative removed you have offered enough: You offered 'Return for a full refund'. He declined,

saying he wants to keep the item.

You asked to see photos of the damage. He refused, and instead saying he wants to keep the item but still

threatens negative feedback. He refuses to make any effort to back up his assertion that the item is damaged.

Ebay will see all this when you call to get the negative removed.

Excellent summary.

Tell him to return the unsatisfactory item for a full refund.

If he refuses, stop communicating.

fatdane · ‎12-24-2015

I politely decline all best offers. Saves a lot of headaches. Bottom feeders ( people who make best offers) tend to PIA's. Life is to short to put up with them.

sylviebee · ‎12-24-2015

@lady.stark wrote:
Here are some facts about this transaction I recently had:

- a buyer sends me a Best Offer on an item
- I thought it was too low, so I counter-offered with just a note saying this was the lowest price I would accept if bought alone
- buyer refused the counter-offer and I thought that was it

However, a few days later, buyer chose to buy the item after all. How can a buyer do that after refusing the counter-offer? I do not know... I did not think it was possible...? Anyway, he buys and he pays after I sent him my invoice. I don't know why, but I had a bad feeling on this transaction from the start... I should have trusted my gut, but I shipped anyway.
___________________________________________________________

I'm confused about what actually occurred.

The buyer made an offer and you essentially declined that offer and counter-offered.

Your buyer didn't just let it sit and expire as many do, but actually refused your counter offer.

At that point the buyer would have been able to make a fresh offer or purchase the item at the full asking price.

Did the buyer purchase the item at full price, or was the buyer able to resurrect your counter offer? That latter should not be possible if the buyer declined the offer.

rose-dee · ‎12-24-2015

For what it may be worth at this point, perhaps too late if you've already taken steps, I would say you've done everything a good seller would be required by eBay to do in such circumstances.

Had the buyer not had a recent history of leaving bad FB, I might have said that he just wanted the item so badly that he changed his mind after turning down your counter-offer and thought he couldn't make another offer (which of course is untrue). However, given the FB history, there is a distinctly fishy scent around this. It does sounds as if this buyer's behaviour is a modus operandi.

Like 'dmil' , I don't want to presume to give you advice that may ultimately affect your seller status, but one thing I would not do is encourage this buyer to open a case. That could have an uncertain outcome, as the question of who is at fault about the supposed "damage" will be left to eBay to decide. And if you get an unresolved case defect, it will stick after Feb. 20th.

Since you've asked for photos of the damage and the buyer was unwilling to cooperate, as long as you've communicated via eBay messages, eBay should be able to see this. Also, I see your return policy is 7 days, at buyer's expense, and you've already offered a refund upon return of the item. I'd leave it at that for the moment.

I presume we're talking about an item under about $20.00? Your alternative of course is to refund this idiot in full, but by doing so you'll be reinforcing his idea that this is a good way to get things for free, and an excellent way to extort other sellers (I also see many of your items offer free shipping, so he may not have even paid for shipping!).

In the meantime, I think I'd be on the phone to eBay to report this person for FB extortion -- and point out to eBay that this buyer has made a habit of leaving negative FB. Be sure to give them a full history of the transaction (including the Best Offer behaviour), and tell them to look at the communications between you and the buyer. My guess is that, if eBay sees the situation clearly, this is the kind of buyer they really don't want.

As an aside, I do have to say that Best Offer has worked very well for me, although I never use it on items of lower value (say, under about $40). I think Best Offer on low value items will attract the swindlers and bottom-feeders. On a higher value item there is also a lot more room to maneuver and negotiate without either party losing too much. Although I do carefully check a buyer's FB history before responding to an offer.

I hope this works out for you. Keep in mind that even if eBay doesn't agree with you and the buyer is permitted to leave negative FB, you can leave a factual, professional comment in response, such as "Offered full refund, buyer refused to return item" or something along that line. Other buyers will see that and come to the right conclusion.

Lastly, after February 20th, previous defects that would not have been counted as such under the new rules are supposedly going to be removed. So as long as you don't allow the matter to get as far as an unresolved case, it should not affect your seller status after Feb. 20th.

However, I hope eBay will side with you in advance, and before it comes to the point of escalation (my guess is that if this buyer is perpetrating a scam, he would not want to open and escalate a case - he wants a simple way to get the item for free by extorting it out of you).

rose-dee · ‎12-24-2015

@sylviebee wrote:
Did the buyer purchase the item at full price, or was the buyer able to resurrect your counter offer? That latter should not be possible if the buyer declined the offer.

Best Offer permits up to 3 offers, which includes expired offers, declined offers, and retracted offers. So after he declined the OP's counter-offer, he still had one left. This buyer could easily have made a fresh offer for the same price as the OP's counter offer if he had simply made an inadvertent mistake in declining the OP's counter-offer. For that matter, if he were an honest buyer, he could have contacted the OP by email at that point and told her what he was willing/able to pay and asked if she'd accept it and revise the item price accordingly.

The fact that he then purchased it at full price tells me he had a plan in mind to extort the item out of the OP for free (or close to it, if he managed to get at least a partial refund for claiming damage).

Keep in mind that eBay clearly displays to buyers the number of offers they have left on an item, so this buyer could not claim ignorance.

lady.stark · ‎12-24-2015

@sylviebee wrote:
I'm confused about what actually occurred.
The buyer made an offer and you essentially declined that offer and counter-offered.
Your buyer didn't just let it sit and expire as many do, but actually refused your counter offer.
At that point the buyer would have been able to make a fresh offer or purchase the item at the full asking price.
Did the buyer purchase the item at full price, or was the buyer able to resurrect your counter offer? That latter should not be possible if the buyer declined the offer.

The buyer declined the counter-offer (there is an option to do this that was recently added to the BO process). I could see it in the offer history. But then he made the purchase at the counter-offer price (not the full price), which is why I don't understand why this could happen. Maybe if he sends a fresh offer at the same amount as my counter-offer price, this is automatically accepted by eBay? I did not think it was possible, but I think this is the only explanation about what happened...

sylviebee · ‎12-24-2015

It has always been possible to to accept, decline, or do nothing in response to an offer or counter-offer.

It shouldn't be possible to accept an offer after it was declined by buyer or seller.

If you have your preferences set to automatically accept or decline offers at a certain percentage then this makes sense.

Is it possible that you have set your listing set to accept offers at a certain percentage of the selling price?

lady.stark · ‎12-24-2015

I tried to edit my message to add something, but I took too much time to type my additional message, so I run out of time! LOL! Here's what I wanted to add:

So far, the buyer did not respond to my last message. I am going away for 2 days, so I will keep you informed upon my return if something happens during my absence. Thank you again for all your input and great advice! 😉

lady.stark · ‎12-24-2015

@sylviebee wrote:
It has always been possible to to accept, decline, or do nothing in response to an offer or counter-offer.
It shouldn't be possible to accept an offer after it was declined by buyer or seller.

Not for a buyer. On my buyer account, I often made offers on items and was not able to decline until very recently. I could only let it expire or counter-offer.

@sylviebee wrote:
If you have your preferences set to automatically accept or decline offers at a certain percentage then this makes sense.
Is it possible that you have set your listing set to accept offers at a certain percentage of the selling price?

I thought I did not have it set up like that, because I recently went through all my listings to revise them, but I just checked and I must have forgotten this one. Now I understand better why he was able to send another offer and why it was automatically accepted. Sorry for the confusion!