PayPal complaint, reason: item not as described
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03-08-2004 06:29 AM
I was hit by another newbie buyer - an account created solely to buy one of my BIN auctions and leave negative feedback. Probably someone who I've negged in the past, under a different account, or perhaps a seller competitor. He bought $2 worth of stuff, paid for it, and I left positive feedback. When he got it, he left 2 negative feedbacks saying "it took a month" and "item was damaged". I know that neither of those accusations is possible, because I shipped it within a couple days, and he lives within 2-3 days mailing distance from me (from Vancouver to Edmonton). He would have received it in under a week. Furthermore, the item (2 collectible cards) was shipped between two peices of cardboard, four layers of thin plastic, and five layers of normal paper. For it to be damaged it would have had to be put through a meat grinder. I've never had a card damaged in shipment, out of several thousand transactions.
So I have 2 negatives - great. I pull his contact info, and it seems to be false, so I report it. He gets NARUd. Few hours later, I get an email from PayPal.
"Claim Type:
The claim states the item received was significantly not-as-described.
The reason(s) are listed below:
The item was externally damaged"
It says my options are to refund his money (plus the $10 fee to PayPal for getting reported), or let him return the items for a full refund (plus the $10 fee to PayPal for getting reported), or refuse and give an explanation which allows PayPal to make the ruling.
I refuse to give this creep his money back and let him keep the items. I'm down to either getting him to ship them back, and refunding, or refusing altogether. I'm leaning toward refusing. If he had emailed me asking to send back the items for inspection, I would have accepted, and given a refund if they were indeed damaged in shipping (even though he didn't purchase insurance).
Has anyone else been through this kind of a chargeback? If I refund, is that admitting wrongdoing, and thereby getting a complaint added to my PayPal profile? What chances are that PayPal will rule in my favour, if I refuse the refund and explain my side? Does that fact that he has been NARUd for false contact information mean anything, or help me?
So I have 2 negatives - great. I pull his contact info, and it seems to be false, so I report it. He gets NARUd. Few hours later, I get an email from PayPal.
"Claim Type:
The claim states the item received was significantly not-as-described.
The reason(s) are listed below:
The item was externally damaged"
It says my options are to refund his money (plus the $10 fee to PayPal for getting reported), or let him return the items for a full refund (plus the $10 fee to PayPal for getting reported), or refuse and give an explanation which allows PayPal to make the ruling.
I refuse to give this creep his money back and let him keep the items. I'm down to either getting him to ship them back, and refunding, or refusing altogether. I'm leaning toward refusing. If he had emailed me asking to send back the items for inspection, I would have accepted, and given a refund if they were indeed damaged in shipping (even though he didn't purchase insurance).
Has anyone else been through this kind of a chargeback? If I refund, is that admitting wrongdoing, and thereby getting a complaint added to my PayPal profile? What chances are that PayPal will rule in my favour, if I refuse the refund and explain my side? Does that fact that he has been NARUd for false contact information mean anything, or help me?
Message 1 of 48
47 REPLIES 47
PayPal complaint, reason: item not as described
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03-08-2004 07:29 AM
shooger
If the guy is a bum, then regardless the condition that he received the cards in, you will receive them back with some damage if agreeing to a refund when they are returned.
Generally from the emails sent, I can determine the difference when a customer tells me that there is a manufacturing defect, something was damaged in transit and it is legitimate complaint or someone who simply wants to return something for a refund and falsley claims that the item is damaged or defective.
Only when I detect a fraud, I tell the customer that they can return the item where we will have a certified technician examine the returned musical instrument to determine how it became damaged. I suggest that the technicians are aware of how each item is packed and can easily detect something damaged in transit or by the cutomer.
If a factory defect, a new instrument will be shipped, if damaged in transit a refund after we are reimbursed by the carrier, if broken by the customer, they can send payment for repairs to us as well as payment for return postage.
Over the last year, I determined that 3 complaints were bogus, used the above on them and none of them returned the instruments.
I know on your case it would be difficult to suggest that a certified technician could make that same type of determination.
As far as PayPal is concerned, unless you can prove the item was delivered in 100% the same description as suggested in your listing, they will, without inspection and exception, always believe the buyer.
On principal alone, knowing how PayPal would proceed, I would agree to give a refund upon receipt of the cards.
Best case scenario is you will get back the cards in the same condition as you sent them out and you can re-sell them again. Plus the buyer wont have the money and the cards which is what he is likely to get.
If the customer doesnt return the cards, then PayPal wont force you to give him a refund so the onus will be on the buyer to prove he delivered them to you.
Worst case scenario is that you will get the cards back and they will be too damaged to sell. Either way, you will be out the money for the cards as PayPal will always rule in favour of the customer claiming damage.
Malcolm
If the guy is a bum, then regardless the condition that he received the cards in, you will receive them back with some damage if agreeing to a refund when they are returned.
Generally from the emails sent, I can determine the difference when a customer tells me that there is a manufacturing defect, something was damaged in transit and it is legitimate complaint or someone who simply wants to return something for a refund and falsley claims that the item is damaged or defective.
Only when I detect a fraud, I tell the customer that they can return the item where we will have a certified technician examine the returned musical instrument to determine how it became damaged. I suggest that the technicians are aware of how each item is packed and can easily detect something damaged in transit or by the cutomer.
If a factory defect, a new instrument will be shipped, if damaged in transit a refund after we are reimbursed by the carrier, if broken by the customer, they can send payment for repairs to us as well as payment for return postage.
Over the last year, I determined that 3 complaints were bogus, used the above on them and none of them returned the instruments.
I know on your case it would be difficult to suggest that a certified technician could make that same type of determination.
As far as PayPal is concerned, unless you can prove the item was delivered in 100% the same description as suggested in your listing, they will, without inspection and exception, always believe the buyer.
On principal alone, knowing how PayPal would proceed, I would agree to give a refund upon receipt of the cards.
Best case scenario is you will get back the cards in the same condition as you sent them out and you can re-sell them again. Plus the buyer wont have the money and the cards which is what he is likely to get.
If the customer doesnt return the cards, then PayPal wont force you to give him a refund so the onus will be on the buyer to prove he delivered them to you.
Worst case scenario is that you will get the cards back and they will be too damaged to sell. Either way, you will be out the money for the cards as PayPal will always rule in favour of the customer claiming damage.
Malcolm
Message 2 of 48
PayPal complaint, reason: item not as described
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03-08-2004 09:31 AM
Thsi would be a good time fro my little tip in this case
Message 3 of 48
PayPal complaint, reason: item not as described
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03-08-2004 03:25 PM
Malcolm - thanks for the advice. I really don't care about the cards OR the $2 plus shipping he spent. Really, if he ships them back to me (would cost him $0.49) then I'll refund the $2. What I care about is losing the $10 US PayPal will charge me if I'm deemed "at fault" as well as possibly having a record on my PayPal profile. It's also the fact that I don't want him to "win" because he's a scammer. The cards (or two bucks) are nothing to me. As for PayPal "always ruling in the case of the customer"... I'm not so sure that's true. My friend bought a $40 card on eBay, and it never came. The creep started getting a lot of negs, and it was obvious he'd gone to the dark side. My friend filed a chargeback with PayPal, but accidently chose "item not exactly as described" instead of "item never came". He was denied a refund by PayPal and told you can only file one chargeback per item... so he lost his $40 because he clicked the wrong box. Hopefully I'll hear from some other people who've been on one end or the other of this kind of experience. I have 10 days to respond.
What tip do you have to offer, chic?
What tip do you have to offer, chic?
Message 4 of 48
PayPal complaint, reason: item not as described
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03-08-2004 03:45 PM
I will give you my 2 cents worth. Paypal will require proof that he returned the cards to you in order to rule in his favor. That is a pretty expensive option in Canada. A lot more than the cards are worth I would suspect. Tell Paypal he can return the cards and make him return the cards with proof he sent them.
The nice thing is that if he has files a chargeback with a credit card company, he will be on the hook for the $10.00 if he does not return the cards and they rule in your favor.
I suspect you will never hear from him again.
The nice thing is that if he has files a chargeback with a credit card company, he will be on the hook for the $10.00 if he does not return the cards and they rule in your favor.
I suspect you will never hear from him again.
Message 5 of 48
PayPal complaint, reason: item not as described
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03-08-2004 04:26 PM
Bob
That exactly why I suggested that he ship the cards back with proof for refund. The expense would be too great and PayPal would find the Buyer at fault for not returning the cards to shooger.
Malcolm
That exactly why I suggested that he ship the cards back with proof for refund. The expense would be too great and PayPal would find the Buyer at fault for not returning the cards to shooger.
Malcolm
Message 6 of 48
PayPal complaint, reason: item not as described
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03-08-2004 05:27 PM
I vaguely remember a post a while back about someone getting scammed where the buyer was claiming they sent it back to the seller but never did. The buyer didn't have "proof" of return but Paypal was still taking the side of the buyer. Randall had said he was looking into it and following up with the original seller/poster. You may want to check some old posts to make sure that Paypal will require the buyer to prove it sent it back. I remember the seller's frustration that Paypal wasn't requiring the buyer to prove he sent it back or something. I don't know what ever became of that but you may want to check with Randall on that Paypal policy first.
If you end up sending a refund to the scammer, you should consider your-chic-shopper's method he posted a while back. I still chuckle thinking about that one...
Message 7 of 48
PayPal complaint, reason: item not as described
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03-08-2004 07:14 PM
This would be a good time for paypal to come in to this thread and help us
Todd
Todd
Message 8 of 48
PayPal complaint, reason: item not as described
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03-08-2004 09:29 PM
I'm VERY surprised by your post. I was under the impression that Paypal does not get involved with quality issues and only gets involved with non delivery of goods.
So if somebody has buyers remourse on an item, they can simply say it was damaged and Paypal will do a chargeback no questions asked.
So if somebody has buyers remourse on an item, they can simply say it was damaged and Paypal will do a chargeback no questions asked.
Message 9 of 48
PayPal complaint, reason: item not as described
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03-09-2004 02:00 AM
Thanks rd1000, Malcolm, and llee2 for your suggestions! Thanks also to yourchicshopper for the idea to refund the payment bit by bit. 🙂
I agree that it would be great to get some clarification on how this PayPal process works. Usually Randall posts in threads like this, so perhaps he's on a few days off, or something. I'll email him and ask him to check out the thread. Thanks for the suggestion, guys.
I'm beginning to think it'd be a good idea to go with the "I'll refund the payment (minus shipping costs) if the buyer sends the items back for inspection" option. I'd want to add the stipulation that the buyer needs to provide PROOF he returned the items before the refund will be given. Maybe Randall could let us know if that's possible or not.
I'm surprised too, labels. It disturbs me that buyers can not pay for insurance, but pay using PayPal as their own built-in "insurance". If the item is damaged, they get a refund through PayPal. Voila, didn't pay for insurance OR item.
I agree that it would be great to get some clarification on how this PayPal process works. Usually Randall posts in threads like this, so perhaps he's on a few days off, or something. I'll email him and ask him to check out the thread. Thanks for the suggestion, guys.
I'm beginning to think it'd be a good idea to go with the "I'll refund the payment (minus shipping costs) if the buyer sends the items back for inspection" option. I'd want to add the stipulation that the buyer needs to provide PROOF he returned the items before the refund will be given. Maybe Randall could let us know if that's possible or not.
I'm surprised too, labels. It disturbs me that buyers can not pay for insurance, but pay using PayPal as their own built-in "insurance". If the item is damaged, they get a refund through PayPal. Voila, didn't pay for insurance OR item.
Message 10 of 48
PayPal complaint, reason: item not as described
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03-09-2004 07:31 AM
shooger
I think the best way to appreciate or understand eBay's and PayPal's philosophy concerning how they treat buyers and sellers is that the basic assumption "the customer is always correct" probably prevails within their organizations.
If you assume that there is considerable likelihood that in a dispute with a customer, the customer's position has a higher degree of being accepted by eBay or PayPal than yours as seller, then you can decide how to minimize you loss and expense of time in arguing your position with PayPal or eBay.
That is not to say that in a major issue, PayPal or eBay would not support you, its just easier to resolve problems with a customer yourself as quickly and as efficiently as possible, assuming, if necessary a small expense but not wasting any time over a situation that the odds might be stacked against you should you rely on PayPal or eBay to make a decision as to who is right.
Malcolm
I think the best way to appreciate or understand eBay's and PayPal's philosophy concerning how they treat buyers and sellers is that the basic assumption "the customer is always correct" probably prevails within their organizations.
If you assume that there is considerable likelihood that in a dispute with a customer, the customer's position has a higher degree of being accepted by eBay or PayPal than yours as seller, then you can decide how to minimize you loss and expense of time in arguing your position with PayPal or eBay.
That is not to say that in a major issue, PayPal or eBay would not support you, its just easier to resolve problems with a customer yourself as quickly and as efficiently as possible, assuming, if necessary a small expense but not wasting any time over a situation that the odds might be stacked against you should you rely on PayPal or eBay to make a decision as to who is right.
Malcolm
Message 11 of 48
PayPal complaint, reason: item not as described
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03-09-2004 09:18 PM
I suggest to refund to avoid $10 fee. Paypal do not require proof of return shipment, so you will loose either way. Refund in small payments.
Anatoly
Anatoly
Message 12 of 48
PayPal complaint, reason: item not as described
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03-09-2004 09:34 PM
"Paypal do not require proof of return shipment"
Anatoly, do you know that for a fact?
Refunding in small payments is not an option. If I choose the "give a full refund" option, PayPal will withdraw the funds (plus $10) from my account. Besides, the buyer has a personal PayPal account (one without fees). Refunding in several small payments would do nothing except make me look like a jerk. Anyhow, why would I choose to let the scammer keep the items? If I'm going to give a refund, I want to at least get the items back.
No word from Randall... I guess I'm going to choose the "refund payment after buyer returns items" option. At the very least, he'll have to spend a stamp to get his $2 back. At the best, they'll make him prove he sent them, which will cost more than $2, so the case will be dropped.
Malcolm, believe me, I understand that eBay and its companies side with buyers. Even the buyers that common sense tells us are scammers and rip-off artists. If it can't be proven (a taped confession, etc) then they will be allowed to continue doing their thing. It generates a lot of money in fees, so it continues.
Anatoly, do you know that for a fact?
Refunding in small payments is not an option. If I choose the "give a full refund" option, PayPal will withdraw the funds (plus $10) from my account. Besides, the buyer has a personal PayPal account (one without fees). Refunding in several small payments would do nothing except make me look like a jerk. Anyhow, why would I choose to let the scammer keep the items? If I'm going to give a refund, I want to at least get the items back.
No word from Randall... I guess I'm going to choose the "refund payment after buyer returns items" option. At the very least, he'll have to spend a stamp to get his $2 back. At the best, they'll make him prove he sent them, which will cost more than $2, so the case will be dropped.
Malcolm, believe me, I understand that eBay and its companies side with buyers. Even the buyers that common sense tells us are scammers and rip-off artists. If it can't be proven (a taped confession, etc) then they will be allowed to continue doing their thing. It generates a lot of money in fees, so it continues.
Message 13 of 48
PayPal complaint, reason: item not as described
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03-09-2004 10:57 PM
I had to do a chargeback for "goods not as described". Paypal gave me two options:
1. Provide them with a tracking number for the return of goods (they did not care that in Canada we do not have tracking numbers on small packets) or,
2. Give Paypal permission to take the money out of my frozen account for the amount of the chargeback plus $10.00.
That was my experience. I can't say that it is the correct way to go. Paypal's user agreement allows them to do whatever they want, and I suspect they will always take the path of least resistance that will get them their money.
Good luck!
Rob
1. Provide them with a tracking number for the return of goods (they did not care that in Canada we do not have tracking numbers on small packets) or,
2. Give Paypal permission to take the money out of my frozen account for the amount of the chargeback plus $10.00.
That was my experience. I can't say that it is the correct way to go. Paypal's user agreement allows them to do whatever they want, and I suspect they will always take the path of least resistance that will get them their money.
Good luck!
Rob
Message 14 of 48
PayPal complaint, reason: item not as described
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03-09-2004 11:03 PM
It is logical, making complete business sense even if we dont agree with the practise.
It is difficult to get customers to buy. If someone feels that they have been scammed on eBay they will likely never buy again on eBay and will tell their friends about their bad experience and encourage them not to buy on eBay.
However as sellers, we have all been scammed, or when we are scammed for the first time in the future, we will reluctantly accept the risk and the loss, after getting it off our chest in this forum, and we will continue to sell on eBay.
Admittedly there is a point that sellers will stop selling on eBay if the scamming becomes wide-spread and daily, so eBay does enforce its rules from time to time and makes it difficult for the ocassional scammer to continue buying on eBay.
The choice for eBay and PayPal is therefore a simple one; if a vendor get scammed 1/100 times, they will likely stay on as sellers however if a buyer gets scammed by a seller even once, he is likely to not ever purchase on eBay again.
Malcolm
It is difficult to get customers to buy. If someone feels that they have been scammed on eBay they will likely never buy again on eBay and will tell their friends about their bad experience and encourage them not to buy on eBay.
However as sellers, we have all been scammed, or when we are scammed for the first time in the future, we will reluctantly accept the risk and the loss, after getting it off our chest in this forum, and we will continue to sell on eBay.
Admittedly there is a point that sellers will stop selling on eBay if the scamming becomes wide-spread and daily, so eBay does enforce its rules from time to time and makes it difficult for the ocassional scammer to continue buying on eBay.
The choice for eBay and PayPal is therefore a simple one; if a vendor get scammed 1/100 times, they will likely stay on as sellers however if a buyer gets scammed by a seller even once, he is likely to not ever purchase on eBay again.
Malcolm
Message 15 of 48
PayPal complaint, reason: item not as described
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03-10-2004 05:18 PM
shooger,
I checked with someone in the PBP claim group and also reviewed the email sent to you. I have found no mention of any additional $10 fee. There are no fees assessed as part of PayPal Buyer Protection.
If you would like to forward me the email you received that shows this I will pass it along to the appropriate group.
Regards,
Randall
PayPal Consumer Relations
I checked with someone in the PBP claim group and also reviewed the email sent to you. I have found no mention of any additional $10 fee. There are no fees assessed as part of PayPal Buyer Protection.
If you would like to forward me the email you received that shows this I will pass it along to the appropriate group.
Regards,
Randall
PayPal Consumer Relations
Message 16 of 48
PayPal complaint, reason: item not as described
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03-10-2004 05:26 PM
"There are no fees assessed as part of PayPal Buyer Protection."
Randall, that's great to know. Thank you for responding to my request that you visit this discussion! 🙂
My question actually was this. If I opt to have the buyer return the items for a refund, will I be able to specify that he provide proof that he indeed returned them? This guy has shown himself to be a scammer. If I agree to refund the price of the items and he never sends them, will I still be held responsible? I'm glad to hear I won't be charged the $10 fee that is associated with chargebacks of a "did not receive item" nature. All I need to know now is if I can specify that the buyer prove he indeed returns the items.
Randall, that's great to know. Thank you for responding to my request that you visit this discussion! 🙂
My question actually was this. If I opt to have the buyer return the items for a refund, will I be able to specify that he provide proof that he indeed returned them? This guy has shown himself to be a scammer. If I agree to refund the price of the items and he never sends them, will I still be held responsible? I'm glad to hear I won't be charged the $10 fee that is associated with chargebacks of a "did not receive item" nature. All I need to know now is if I can specify that the buyer prove he indeed returns the items.
Message 17 of 48
PayPal complaint, reason: item not as described
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03-10-2004 05:28 PM
PS:
"If you would like to forward me the email you received that shows this I will pass it along to the appropriate group."
I didn't get any email warning during my _other_ chargeback experience, but I was still charged the $10 fee when I couldn't provide proof that I had shipped the items to the buyer. So just because PayPal doesn't send an email stating you will be charged $10 doesn't mean that you won't be charged $10. 😛
"If you would like to forward me the email you received that shows this I will pass it along to the appropriate group."
I didn't get any email warning during my _other_ chargeback experience, but I was still charged the $10 fee when I couldn't provide proof that I had shipped the items to the buyer. So just because PayPal doesn't send an email stating you will be charged $10 doesn't mean that you won't be charged $10. 😛
Message 18 of 48
PayPal complaint, reason: item not as described
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03-10-2004 05:34 PM
shooger,
If a seller agrees to the refund upon return (at buyer's expense) the refund will not be completed until we receive proof that the item was in fact returned to the seller.
Regards,
Randall
PayPal Consumer Relations
If a seller agrees to the refund upon return (at buyer's expense) the refund will not be completed until we receive proof that the item was in fact returned to the seller.
Regards,
Randall
PayPal Consumer Relations
Message 19 of 48
PayPal complaint, reason: item not as described
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03-10-2004 05:38 PM
shooger,
So just because PayPal doesn't send an email stating you will be charged $10 doesn't mean that you won't be charged $10.
Difference here is that the $10 chargeback settlement fee is clearly outlined in the User Agreement, and you did in fact receive an email stating that you had a chargeback.
I will suggest to the group that handles content within dispute emails to consider making it clearer.
Regards,
Randall
PayPal Consumer Relations
So just because PayPal doesn't send an email stating you will be charged $10 doesn't mean that you won't be charged $10.
Difference here is that the $10 chargeback settlement fee is clearly outlined in the User Agreement, and you did in fact receive an email stating that you had a chargeback.
I will suggest to the group that handles content within dispute emails to consider making it clearer.
Regards,
Randall
PayPal Consumer Relations
Message 20 of 48
