Scammed.

[primarysafety]

So I believe my 'good will' has resulted in me being defrauded by $240.00.

On October 4th a buyer did a BIN $499 including $30 of shipping to Florida from Canada. The Buyer paid via paypal and then sent me a email asking me to call him immediately as he needed this item FAST. (it was a fire alarm panel and I could understand the possible urgency if it is a fire alarm out of service).

He asked me to ship it overnight via UPS using his "account" number. I have never encountered this before but figured that it wasn't any risk because all charges would be on his account. I told him I could ship it immediately but it would be a special trip to the city UPS depot (70 miles round trip). He said OK and I asked for the $30 that he paid to be used for gas.

It shipped off via UPS and he received it shortly after and that was the last I ever heard... Until December 28th.

I get a letter in the mail from UPS stating that the account holder had refused to pay the charges of $238 (David S____- Matching paypal account holder David S____). Since the charges to the account were refused UPS now expects me to pay for these charges.

I called UPS and they said sorry it clearly states here there and on the waybill that if a receiver refuses then the shipper is responsible for the charges.

What should I do? There is no fraud on the paypal side of things. Item paid for item delivered. But I am stuck with this pending bill of $240 that will probably go to a collection agency and ruin my credit if I refuse to pay.

Stupid me. Up front money and no special shipping in the future.

[primarysafety]

10.3 Refusal of Freight Collect and ThirdParty Charges

"If Freight Collect or Third Party charges are refused or not paid by the Consignee or third party for a Shipment, the Billing Option Payer Refusal Charge, set forth in the UPS Rates applicable to the Shipment in effect at the time of shipping, will be billed to the Shipper in addition to the original outbound shipping charges."

Is an account number freight collect? Third Party? I didnt send it COD. It was sent on account. I would assume that acceptance of the package meant acceptance of the bill. Hmm..

[primarysafety]

UPS also accepts Shipments billed to the receiver or a third party provided the receiver or third party has a valid UPS Account Number and the payer has been notified in advance by the Shipper and has agreed to accept the charges.

The receiver’s or third party’s UPS Account Number and postal code must be provided to UPS at the time of shipping via the shipping system or on the Source Document used by the Shipper.

The Shipper is responsible for shipping charges refused by a receiver or third party in addition to the charge referred to in Section 10.3.

[rosscd57]

I called UPS and they said sorry it clearly states here there and on the waybill that if a receiver refuses then the shipper is responsible for the charges.

What should I do? There is no fraud on the paypal side of things. Item paid for item delivered. But I am stuck with this pending bill of $240 that will probably go to a collection agency and ruin my credit if I refuse to pay.

Stupid me. Up front money and no special shipping in the future.

Those are UPS rules and policies - likely not enforceable. I would not pay. Is there anything on paper with your signature on it that includes these rules?

[dipmicro]

In these cases always ask for the label printed by the shipper.

Don't ask here, ask lawyer and/or police what your options are.

[dipmicro]

I meant label issued by the shipper and emailed to you. Does not need to be physically "printed".

If you intend to be borrowing money in the near few years future, I would not risk the credit strike and try to fight back. If you don't have mortgage and don't use credit cards, you can just ignore it like rosscd57 says.

[primarysafety]

Thanks dipmicro thats probably the best route if I ever encounter this again.

Nothing on paper with my signature. I would have to get my hands on a UPS waybill to see what it states and what or if I signed.

[rosscd57]

I did some quick searching and found that refusing to pay a disputed amount in this instance should not affect your credit rating because UPS is not a valid creditor with regard to affecting your credit score - specially if the amount is in dispute. You take credit score hits only on amount that you have agreed in writing to pay: such as loans, mortgages, credit card payments.

Incidently, collection agencys have no standing with credit rating firms, despite what they may claim. 

Do some research on your own before you cough up any dough.

[avionsunantiques]

I got scammed like that a number of years ago.   They get very nasty with their collection agency tactics.

UPS is a terrible company, I've been ripped off by them many different ways.

The most recent one is of interest to Canadians.   I use UPS when shipping items that are too large for the post office.   The alternatives, DHL and Fedex are problematic too.   

With UPS, when I need to send an item, I send it via a UPS store.  On one occasion last year, I had an item destroyed - smashed through 4" of wood protection (something I thought would have been impossible until UPS actually did it).   The package must have been smashed between forklifts or something.   Clearly grossly negligent treatment.

I filed a complaint with the Better Business Bureau.   Here is the interesting part, even though UPS did the damage, the BBB would not bring a complaint against UPS, they would only allow me to complain against the UPS store where I sent the item (even though that store clearly didn't do anything wrong).

Apparently the UPS stores are nothing to do with UPS.    

The next time out, I tried Fedex and DHL, but fedex told me they loose 1/100 items!  and would only insure for $1000 max, and DHL said they would not insure at all!    So this time I went to the UPS depo itself.   The depo has a customer care office to accept packages.   However the UPS depo would not sell any insurance at all (all I wanted was loss insurance).   They said the only place I could get insurance, was if I sent it at a UPS store!   But from my prior experience, if UPS smashes your item, and you sent via the UPS store, then UPS says your can only complain to the UPS store, which of course, didn't do anything wrong!

ie, UPS and the UPS store, play pass the buck, and you get nothing.

The moral of this story is don't ever use UPS if there is any alternative.

ps, the only time I've ever had an item lost or damaged, was when sent from Canada by UPS!

[i*m-still-here]

avionsunantiques........ thank you so much for posting that.  It's really good information to have.

I wonder what would happen if you'd also used Third Party insurance?

Do you have any experience with that?

[i*m-still-here]

I've always been very cautious with upgraded methods of shipping.

If anything goes wrong the seller has to suck it up.

I have to agree:  Not paying the bill would serve them right.

The couriers stick it to us every chance they get.

Also, if you're the kind of person who feels obligated for some reason I'm pretty sure they'd negotiate the bill.  For them, something is better than nothing when all is said and done.

I'm not so sure it would hurt a credit rating in the same way that some things would.

[inuk_the_polar_bear]

This is a good one, stuck between a rock and a hard place. I have had UPS try to collect from me twice. Pound sand. Thing is, both times it was parcels sent to me by a shipper. I refused the parcels because the UPS charges were outside of our agreement. Parcels were returned to the sender, UPS sent me a bill.

I had no contract with UPS so I was in the clear.

Technically, you have a conttract because you are the shipper. How legal is that, I do not know. Where does the debt originate? Florida or Canada? 

If it was me, I would go and talk to my Credit Union. They deal with these sort of things a lot, who owes what to whom.

$240 is a lot of money and it isn't a lot of money. There's the rub.

Don't talk to UPS, they will lie to you. You will get mail from them. Read it, put it down, come back to it later. What does it really say? In the meantime, do nothing with them.

[i*m-still-here]

Just to put it together:

Your American buyer bought an item for $500 and that would have meant that there was duty and or taxes to pay.

Americans don't think that way, but UPS always collects.

That means that the buyer would have quite a surprise at his end.

You either didn't think about that or thought he knew and/or wouldn't care.

Wrong!

So who's to blame?

The buyer?  The seller?  UPS?

I go with UPS because they are the ones who deal with this all the time yet don't give their customers the heads up that they have huge brokerage fees and never miss a chance to process an item.

They should, by law, have to inform customers about brokerage fees.  For a $500 item those fees would been hefty because the higher the items cost, the greater the fee.

[stevephinn2012]

only "my" opinion BUT if this was in fact charged to "his' account he is therefore the "shipper' on record! and not you and this also should be charged to his account.

When you call them tell them that if they want to collect the money they have 2 choices

1- go after the person that paid to have it shipped-they have a contract with him not you

or

2- go and get your item back and ship it back to you at which time you will pay them

[toby_le_pue]

Looks like he used a company UPS account for his own items and the company has refused to pay it .

[dipmicro]

Looks like he used a company UPS account for his own items and the company has refused to pay it .

That would be potential "felony" and could be kicked off to the police. After filing the report, UPS should not be collecting until investigation is complete. Police will not bother with $250 and UPS is stuck. For some strange reason, I don't feel sympathy for them.

[pierrelebel]

"Scammed"

????

Maybe not.

From your original post, I understand the buyer did in fact received the item in early October.  Checking the feedback records, it appears you left positive feedback for your buyer a month later.

Your buyer seems to purchase a lot of similar Fire Alarm products, many from the same supplier and never leaves feedback.  That's OK.  Many buyers never leave feedback.

What you have here is not a "scam" since you were paid for your item but a commercial dispute with UPS who claims the buyer refused to pay the shipping charge.

I suggest you immediately contact the buyer by telephone and ask him if he is aware of the problem. It may be a simple quaestion of miscommunication between the buyer and UPS.

In any case, do NOT pay UPS.

[stevephinn2012]

Looks like he used a company UPS account for his own items and the company has refused to pay it

OP posted that the account names were both the same "steve b" or something, so think it might be a small business. So all the seller did was drop off a parcel. Since it was charged to an open UPS account you would think the charges would be also

[recped]

Stolen UPS accounts, it's an old scam..........

Happens with FedEx as well.

I had to open a FedEx account a few years ago to ship something. Within a month I had bogus charges showing up on the account (shipments from Hong Kong to the USA).

When you ship via UPS or FedEx you can input any valid account number as the billing account. Need an account number? You can find one on ANY FedEx (or UPS) box, it's right there on the label.

Never use the account number provided by a buyer unless you know them well. As previously mentioned, if a buyer prepares the shipping label and sends it to you then THEY are the shipper of record, if there is a problem with the account they are the ones that UPS will come after.

[avionsunantiques]

I've no experience with third party insurance.  Over the years I've tried insurance with Canadapost, self insurance, and insurance via  UPS, Fedex and DHL.

The first claim I ever made was against Canadapost for a tracked item sent to California and insured for $500.   It is still outstanding, and has been about 10 years.   Clearly Canada post has no intention of paying out.

The tracking information showed the item disappeared somewhere in the US.   The item was a limited edition signed porcelain basket, which had been sold on Ebay for $500.   The sticking point, was the Canadapost would not pay up without an independent appraisal stating the item was worth $500.   Of course, and appraiser can't appraise an item without seeing it - so it was impossible to get.    There were 2 other examples of the same basket which had sold on ebay for $600-800 within the prior year however (but not good enough for Canadapost).

So, Canadapost took money from me to mail the item, and to insure against it getting stolen by them while in their hands.   Then after it got stolen, they refused to pay out on the insurance they had sold me, unless I provided an impossible to get document!