What happens if international buyer opens an INR while parcel awaits payment of import tariffs?

[momcqueen]

This is a question that I have wondered about for awhile: what happens if an international buyer opens an INR while parcel awaits their payment of tariffs/import taxes/duty?

In my scenario, the parcel is tracked so that the seller (the sender or sender/seller) knows precisely where it is and the reason it is there. Although Canada Post rarely if ever states explicitly that 'this item is being held until recipient pays their import taxes' the tracking notation will say something like 'Item has been sent to customs in the destination country' and that means, as we all know, the item is getting a look-over by incoming Customs before being released to the postal agent for delivery. The tracking on the postal agent site may say something like 'In working with the Postal Operations Centre' but, as these things take time and the order will not be delivered until the recipient pays what is due the government.....

What happens if they leave it at the post office and instead open an Item Not Received case? Does ebay offer a different process to follow than paypal for this? 

I'm looking at package right now that was bought by a person located in the USA and sent to an address overseas. It might be a gift, or it might be drop-shipped with me as the unwitting middleman, making me a sender/seller. Regardless, if the overseas recipient thinks they are getting a gift, they might not be willing to pay import taxes on it. Or if they bought it from another e-commerce site and find it when they investigate the tracking associated with their pay-me-or-else import tax bill that it was mailed to them by a seller on ebay in Canada, they may be confused and still not pay their import fees because they were expected it to ship duty-free from elsewhere entirely. So then the 'recipient' goes to their seller (which is the ebay buyer in this case but not the recipient) and says, 'What kind of @#$% is this?' and then seller/buyer is mad and opens an INR against the sender/seller. Because the item has not been delivered. 

Assuming that the sender/seller isn't hung out to dry in this case for not doing anything wrong, does anyone have experience to share in this area? Have I explained this in a way that makes sense? It's for an instance where the ebay seller gets used as a middleman without knowing it.

Alternatively, how does ebay/paypal protect sellers from buyers who might open an INR and then pay import taxes after they've won their case so that they get their money back and the original item? 

Thank you in advance.

[maxwar82]

What happens is you are screwed.  If you are lucky the parcel will be returned to you and at least you wont lose the item AND the money.  Also, I would be wary to ship something to a different address than than one that is confirmed in the buyer's paypal.

If the parcel is lost or returned to you, the buyer will be refunded whatever the reason is. The best you could do then is probably appeal the defect it would give you if you can show with your tracking that the problem was caused by the courier service or the customer.

So the best strategy is usually communication. Trying to solve issues directly with the buyer through direct communication works very often.

[sylviebee]

I'm a little unsure about the shipping address because you mention that they buyer has both a US and overseas address.

Did you ship to the address on paypal and eBay?

If so, and the buyer isn't picking it up, then I'm quite sure you'll be fine.

You may get the parcel back and keep the money.

If you shipped to an address other than the paypal address that could get complicated.

[hlmacdon]

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@mjwl2006 wrote:

In my scenario, the parcel is tracked so that the seller (the sender or sender/seller) knows precisely where it is and the reason it is there.

Assuming that the sender/seller isn't hung out to dry in this case for not doing anything wrong, does anyone have experience to share in this area? Have I explained this in a way that makes sense? It's for an instance where the ebay seller gets used as a middleman without knowing it.

Alternatively, how does ebay/paypal protect sellers from buyers who might open an INR and then pay import taxes after they've won their case so that they get their money back and the original item? 

Thank you in advance.

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Is this a hypothetical or actual case? If the item is awaiting payment of import tax and is being held for pickup it should denote it is being held for pickup on the online tracking (this sort of scan is included as part of the Post Expres system). If this is an actual case, what does the tracking say? If a buyer opens an INR while an item is being held for pickup, or is returned because it has not been picked up, you can simply call in to paypal/ebay to discuss the matter and have notes attached to the case. In particular,the paypal system is very much automated when it comes to a tracking number and the opening of a case, so you would want to call in rather than just responding with the tracking number. In my (limited) experience with such matters, if the item is being held you are not obligated to give a refund until the item is returned back to you with confirmation via the original tracking, at which point you are only obligated to refund the item price.

Keep in mind there are times when the recipient may not have been left with a pickup notice, so it is good practice to send an international buyer a message to let them know their package is available pickup in the event they didn't receive the notice. I once had an ebay buyer open a case, and upon checking the tracking number with the domestic postal service it showed it had been available for pickup and was scheduled for return. Fortunately by notifying the buyer they will able to arrange pickup before that happened. In my experience, just because we use tracking doesn't mean the buyer necessarily pays attention to it.

[pjcdn2005]

It sounds like you sent this directly overseas...not to the U.S. first?

If you can show that the item was available to be picked up but was not, the eBay MBG will not cover the buyer.

That would include not picking it up because they didn't want to pay tax.

http://pages.ebay.ca/help/policies/money-back-guarantee.html#fraudulent

Generally, the buyer is responsible for accepting the item when it arrives. If the buyer refuses delivery, their claim is not eligible for the eBay Money Back Guarantee.

Exceptions:

• The buyer can provide, via written proof from the carrier, that they refused the package because it arrived empty or was damaged in shipping

• The buyer accepted and opened the package only to determine that it was an empty box

• The item arrived COD because it didn't have enough postage on it

The buyer is responsible for paying any customs and duty fees for international shipping.

Exception:

• The seller overstated the value of the item, which caused customs fees to be higher

As far as I know, Paypal doesn't have anything similar in writing but they may deal with a situation like that on a case to case basis.

Alternatively, how does ebay/paypal protect sellers from buyers who might open an INR and then pay import taxes after they've won their case so that they get their money back and the original item? 

That shouldn't happen because they wouldn't win the case if you could show that the item was waiting to be picked up.

Keep in mind too that you might get more info on the package's status if you check the receiving post office website.

In any type of situation like this it is best to phone ebay about it because they won't necessarily see that the item is waiting to be picked up..just that is hasn't been delivered.

[momcqueen]

It is still a hypothetical case at this point. 

I shipped the item overseas to the address provided by ebay/paypal as per the rules but I can see the buyer is an American whereas the recipient is European. But it is not the first time I have had an American (based on their My World details) buy one of my very rare items (coincidentally the kind that would have an asking price on The River of for four times mine on ebay) and ship it overseas. 

I've shifted everything I can away from Small Packets to Tracked Packets so I'm not terribly worried the buyer claiming they didn't get the item when everyone involved (except perhaps the end recipient) can see that it is sitting at Customs or with the postal agent awaiting response from the recipient. But every destination country has a different way of defining that waiting-for-payment-of-import-taxes on tracking and some do so with little to no detail. 

My concern is that the recipient will balk at paying the required duty (this item is destined for a country that never forgets to charge it) and complain to the person who they bought it from which I don't really think was me. I'm quite certain I am the middleman in this scenario.

Regardless, a buyer cannot win an INR on a tracked item waiting at Customs and then pay duty after the INR has closed so that it is still delivered to them, right? Without consequence, I mean. I really hate having to call ebay Customer Service, and have to try to explain over and over and over again to the reps what they are supposed to know to tell me so I'd like to be ready.

I already do know that if an item is refused due to the recipient failing to pay duty, it is supposed to come back to the sender and whether Canada Post charges return shipping is decided on the phases of the moon.

[mr.elmwood]

I was given to understand that when you have a tracking number, that works, it is very hard to lose.

[hlmacdon]

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@mjwl2006 wrote:

It is still a hypothetical case at this point. 

I shipped the item overseas to the address provided by ebay/paypal as per the rules but I can see the buyer is an American whereas the recipient is European. But it is not the first time I have had an American (based on their My World details) buy one of my very rare items (coincidentally the kind that would have an asking price on The River of for four times mine on ebay) and ship it overseas. 

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I've run into this often enough, with buyers registered in one country shipping to another. As long as you ship with tracking and ship to the listed shipping address (cross checked with paypal) I wouldn't worry about it as you have done your bit for risk assessment. I wouldn't overthink this too much as a buyer can just register with the guest checkout and enter whatever they want and ship to wherever they want (based on your listing destinations).

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I've shifted everything I can away from Small Packets to Tracked Packets so I'm not terribly worried the buyer claiming they didn't get the item when everyone involved (except perhaps the end recipient) can see that it is sitting at Customs or with the postal agent awaiting response from the recipient. But every destination country has a different way of defining that waiting-for-payment-of-import-taxes on tracking and some do so with little to no detail. 

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From what I have seen for anything shipped under the Post Expres program (USPS e-delcon, Canada Post tracked packet), the  awaiting pick up (not the exact wording) seems to be a consistently used status. Granted these instances where I have noticed/had reason to notice have been somewhat rare, but included Spain, Israel, Malayasia, and the UK. I would expect that given this is an agreed upon UPU program across participating countries, scans should be quite consistent in the type they will do and how they report them as it relies on standardized data interchange between participants.

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My concern is that the recipient will balk at paying the required duty (this item is destined for a country that never forgets to charge it) and complain to the person who they bought it from which I don't really think was me. I'm quite certain I am the middleman in this scenario.

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Really it just boils down to if they left negative feedback of some sort and waiting for it to be returned. If feedback was in relation to the duties, taxes, or refunds then you would have grounds for feedback removal. As far as ebay is concerned the only parties are you and the buyer.

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Regardless, a buyer cannot win an INR on a tracked item waiting at Customs and then pay duty after the INR has closed so that it is still delivered to them, right? Without consequence, I mean. I really hate having to call ebay Customer Service, and have to try to explain over and over and over again to the reps what they are supposed to know to tell me so I'd like to be ready.

I already do know that if an item is refused due to the recipient failing to pay duty, it is supposed to come back to the sender and whether Canada Post charges return shipping is decided on the phases of the moon.

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As I mentioned with the paypal system being very automated for shipments involving tracking numbers, there is always the potential that you could lose a case based on their algorithm if there was a degree of aging with the shipment or vagueness with the scan information (ie shows departure of origin country but no destination entry). If I ever have an INR case opened for a shipment I have with tracking, I call into ebay or paypal and discuss the matter with them to ensure appropriate notes are made on the record. Unless the tracking shows as delivered, I wouldn't just upload the tracking with non-delivery status and just leave it at that.

Policies are pretty clear here, it is up to the buyer to ensure they have a deliverable address, an address that can be safely delivered to (for shipments not requiring signature confirmation), and they are responsible for original shipping charges in the event they refuse a package or it is not deliverable.

[hlmacdon]

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@mr.elmwood wrote:

I was given to understand that when you have a tracking number, that works, it is very hard to lose.

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That has been my experience. Even in cases where tracking shows as delivered but buyer claims otherwise, they'll be directed to go through the process of filing a police report to attempt to get a courtesy refund, which is sometimes given as ebay/paypal finds it cheaper from a customer acquisition point of view. Most experienced fraudsters know this and will often opt for the SNAD instead and claim missing items.

The only time this is problematic is when the value of the item(s) require you to have signature confirmation and you haven't used it. If memory serves paypal had raised those limits under one of the more recent user agreement revisions, but I believe signature options are somewhat limited for Canada Post services on the international side, so that is one potential problem area for higher value items.

[momcqueen]

This is the order I to which was referring. Now delivered..... Or is it?

Check out the tracking on it. I suppose that if I see it continue to move, I'll know to assume it's on the way home. 

[momcqueen]

p.s. The delivery standard date was Feb. 8. If this were Small Packets, I would have FAILED on the 'did it arrive' question because it was late, super late arriving in Italy. I mailed it same-day. Not my fault. Anyone care to adjust their handling time to Italy by two weeks just to be safe? 

[hlmacdon]

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@mjwl2006 wrote:

p.s. The delivery standard date was Feb. 8. If this were Small Packets, I would have FAILED on the 'did it arrive' question because it was late, super late arriving in Italy. I mailed it same-day. Not my fault. Anyone care to adjust their handling time to Italy by two weeks just to be safe? 

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I would never ship to Italy to begin with as customs their can be extremely problematic at times. Along with Brazil and Russia, that would be one of the first countries I block.

Out of curiosity was the item you sold/sent over the VAT free limit? If the item is refused by recipient (dodgy tracking status you received there!), that is often why Europeans will try to reject the order rather than paying VAT.

[momcqueen]

The duty-free limit in Italy is very low; this was certainly above it.

I only ship with tracking to Italy now. Actually, I only ship with tracking, period. I don't have the time to fight every defect with Customer Service for untraced items received 'late' when we all know they were likely not. Effective February 1, I eliminated 100 per cent of service by Small Packets, and 75 per cent of Light Packet is gone too. Domestic lettermail on about one-quarter of my items is the only thing left now to The Question. I ship same-day without fail and I'll be darned if I'm going to lie about it to pad my Item Description page wait times. I always felt it was questionable advice: to add handling time. The moment you mark it shipped, it's going to recalculate the delivery estimate to the right number of days regardless; there is no correlation between the Order History days and the Item Description display. 

Further complicating matters, I am quite sure as I said from the onset that the person who bought it was not the recipient. My buyer is an ebay member based in the USA who buys 300+ items per month and more than 5000 annually and sells nothing with that ID. (Also leaves only negatives for their sellers.) This member likely buys on ebay to sell on websites elsewhere. I was used unwittingly as the middleman. 

[hlmacdon]

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@mjwl2006 wrote:

The duty-free limit in Italy is very low; this was certainly above it.

I only ship with tracking to Italy now. Actually, I only ship with tracking, period. I don't have the time to fight every defect with Customer Service for untraced items received 'late' when we all know they were likely not. Effective February 1, I eliminated 100 per cent of service by Small Packets, and 75 per cent of Light Packet is gone too. Domestic lettermail on about one-quarter of my items is the only thing left now to The Question. I ship same-day without fail and I'll be darned if I'm going to lie about it to pad my Item Description page wait times. I always felt it was questionable advice: to add handling time. The moment you mark it shipped, it's going to recalculate the delivery estimate to the right number of days regardless; there is no correlation between the Order History days and the Item Description display. 

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 Even with tracking ability I personally don't, as the delays with their custom services give rise to too many headaches in dealing with antsy buyers unfortunately. I agree the handling extension is not a good fix. I'll be moving to a 2 day handling period to eliminate the possibility of any scan/acceptance date issues, but I'd rather be setting my own ETAs based on my own compiled delivery statistics. Found a fun transaction yesterday where a US buyer didn't pickup their package for 2 weeks, 17 day delivery cycle that should have been 4. No accounting for that sort of thing happening though.

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Further complicating matters, I am quite sure as I said from the onset that the person who bought it was not the recipient. My buyer is an ebay member based in the USA who buys 300+ items per month and more than 5000 annually and sells nothing with that ID. (Also leaves only negatives for their sellers.) This member likely buys on ebay to sell on websites elsewhere. I was used unwittingly as the middleman. 

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The other possibility is that the recipient was blocked by your buyer requirements. I'm not sure if you are familiar with the buyer requirements activity log (site preferences --> buyer  requirements --> buyer requirements activity log. That will show you any users that were blocked in a transaction. I'll sometimes find blocked buyers or buyers from outside the country who will use a third party to order an item.

[zee-chan-jpn-books]

Sounds like it is indeed some sort of middleman service account. Hopefully it works out for you... it says rejected and then delivered......

[momcqueen]

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The other possibility is that the recipient was blocked by your buyer requirements. I'm not sure if you are familiar with the buyer requirements activity log (site preferences --> buyer  requirements --> buyer requirements activity log. That will show you any users that were blocked in a transaction. I'll sometimes find blocked buyers or buyers from outside the country who will use a third party to order an item.

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Thank you, yes, I check that spot regularly to see who might be trying to buy stuff without success but none had been rejected lately. My biggest beef with the log is that it only tracks Unpaid Items or Addresses or Too Many at Once and does NOT let you know who might be trying to circumvent a manual block. The members who have been blocked by me personally are the ones I worry most about. No one goes on my personal BB list unless they are deserving of it. 

I really haven't had any trouble shipping to Italy although I don't do a brisk trade there. Italians are always dinged for their import taxes but then so are Brits and Germans....

I don't have a big problem with being used as a middleman by the actual ebay-sponsored programs that do so like the ones in India and pockets of Asia. With the 'free agents' like my buyer in this transaction, I do get a bit antsy. They are putting themselves at risk with each transaction and often lash out when things don't go to their liking. If the recipient had balked at paying their taxes and it had come back to me? You'll have too trust me that some of the buyer's Feedback Left For Others makes this fairly clear. Plus, I put a packing slip in each order stating explicitly that it came from me and the paid value of the item so the recipient will be confused and also possible highly irritated if they paid their seller five times more for it than the buyer paid me. 

[rose-dee]

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@mjwl2006 wrote:

I ship same-day without fail and I'll be darned if I'm going to lie about it to pad my Item Description page wait times. I always felt it was questionable advice: to add handling time. The moment you mark it shipped, it's going to recalculate the delivery estimate to the right number of days regardless; there is no correlation between the Order History days and the Item Description display. 

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This specific issue came up on this week's Board Hour.  I'll quote the Q&A here for anyone who is interested.  Not that this is the salve to cure all wounds where the on-time delivery question is concerned, but extending handling time will help because it is a distinct component of the delivery calculation.  

Although I too was upset when the suggestion was initially made about extending handling time, I've come around to seeing that it may be the only thing we sellers have left to control if we can't afford tracking.  

I really don't see it as "lying", in the sense that I actually provide better service than I state in my listings, so my handling time will never be untrue (or even tested).  What's the result if a buyer purchases, expecting handling of 2 days, but I actually get it out the door the same day and the buyer receives it 2 or 3 days earlier than anticipated as a result?  Happy buyer, I would think.  What's the result if a buyer purchases, expecting same-day handling, and something goes awry at the seller's end to delay shipping (weather, flu, car trouble, you-name-it) -- very unhappy buyer, and a bigger chance eBay's shortened delivery estimate will generate a "No" to the Question.  On the other hand, I believe that displaying a handling time longer than 3 days may get the wrong kind of notice from buyers.  

As I've said on many occasions since this policy was announced, I'm simply going to do what is necessary to survive as long as I can without increasing my costs to the breaking point.  EBay is such a shape-shifter that who knows -- those of us who manage to hang on for another year or two may find this whole policy has been chucked out.  (I'm an incurable optimist).  

@"musicyouneed wrote:

Handling Time

1. Does it start when the buyer pays? For instance: Buyer purchases and pays for item on Feb 1/16, there is a 3 day handling time, so the seller needs to get it in the mail by Feb 4/16.  The estimated delivery time to the buyer shows Feb 10 to Feb 16/16 (4 to 8 days).  
2. If the item is shipped the same day on Feb 1/16 and the seller marks the item as shipped on Feb 1/16, does that change the delivery date that the buyer rates the seller on? Does it all of a sudden change for the buyer to Feb 5 to Feb 12/16? 

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1. Yes, a seller cannot be expected to start the shipping process (which starts with handling) until they get paid.

2. No. The delivery date is only based on the payment date + handling time + estimated transit time."

[pocomocomputing]

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@rose-dee wrote:

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@mjwl2006 wrote:

I ship same-day without fail and I'll be darned if I'm going to lie about it to pad my Item Description page wait times. I always felt it was questionable advice: to add handling time. The moment you mark it shipped, it's going to recalculate the delivery estimate to the right number of days regardless; there is no correlation between the Order History days and the Item Description display. 

---

This specific issue came up on this week's Board Hour.  I'll quote the Q&A here for anyone who is interested.  Not that this is the salve to cure all wounds where the on-time delivery question is concerned, but extending handling time will help because it is a distinct component of the delivery calculation.  

Although I too was upset when the suggestion was initially made about extending handling time, I've come around to seeing that it may be the only thing we sellers have left to control if we can't afford tracking.  

I really don't see it as "lying", in the sense that I actually provide better service than I state in my listings, so my handling time will never be untrue (or even tested).  What's the result if a buyer purchases, expecting handling of 2 days, but I actually get it out the door the same day and the buyer receives it 2 or 3 days earlier than anticipated as a result?  Happy buyer, I would think.  What's the result if a buyer purchases, expecting same-day handling, and something goes awry at the seller's end to delay shipping (weather, flu, car trouble, you-name-it) -- very unhappy buyer, and a bigger chance eBay's shortened delivery estimate will generate a "No" to the Question.  On the other hand, I believe that displaying a handling time longer than 3 days may get the wrong kind of notice from buyers.  

As I've said on many occasions since this policy was announced, I'm simply going to do what is necessary to survive as long as I can without increasing my costs to the breaking point.  EBay is such a shape-shifter that who knows -- those of us who manage to hang on for another year or two may find this whole policy has been chucked out.  (I'm an incurable optimist).  

@"musicyouneed wrote:

Handling Time

1. Does it start when the buyer pays? For instance: Buyer purchases and pays for item on Feb 1/16, there is a 3 day handling time, so the seller needs to get it in the mail by Feb 4/16.  The estimated delivery time to the buyer shows Feb 10 to Feb 16/16 (4 to 8 days).  
2. If the item is shipped the same day on Feb 1/16 and the seller marks the item as shipped on Feb 1/16, does that change the delivery date that the buyer rates the seller on? Does it all of a sudden change for the buyer to Feb 5 to Feb 12/16? 

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1. Yes, a seller cannot be expected to start the shipping process (which starts with handling) until they get paid.

2. No. The delivery date is only based on the payment date + handling time + estimated transit time."

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rose-dee, you are drinking the eBay.ca Canada Kool-Aid now?

Now with the delivery time estimates becoming important, ebay is saying to LIE about handling time to extended their LOW delivery time estimates to workaround their poorly designed USA based system.

[momcqueen]

Quoting the first part of the same passage from Board Hour on Feb. 17, ebay counts the day it is marked shipped as Day Zero, starting the clock. It's not like an extended handling time is some Get Out Of Jail Free card here. Extending handling time by five to 10 days and it might cover your bases but I won't be doing it. If ebay wants to judge us on acceptance scans and tracking, tracking they will get. Extending a handling time up to two weeks still will not save a seller from a buyer that simply forgets when their untraced item arrived and answers 'no' regardless. Or mistakes made by fat fingers on a mobile device. I don't have time to fight it. And the number of days in delivery estimate on the Order History page isn't being correctly calculated anyway, we know that. Did R ever confirm which estimate the buyer sees when answering the question? The timeframe on the item page is not the same as in the Order History. 

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@musicyouneed wrote:

Raphael, sorry this is a long one:

Shipping

1. Canada Post doesn’t count the day something is mailed in their calculations, does ebay? 

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Yes. The day something gets put in the mail is counted as Day 0.

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@musicyouneed wrote:

Handling Time 

1. Does it start when the buyer pays? For instance: Buyer purchases and pays for item on Feb 1/16, there is a 3 day handling time, so the seller needs to get it in the mail by Feb 4/16.  The estimated delivery time to the buyer shows Feb 10 to Feb 16/16 (4 to 8 days).  
2. If the item is shipped the same day on Feb 1/16 and the seller marks the item as shipped on Feb 1/16, does that change the delivery date that the buyer rates the seller on? Does it all of a sudden change for the buyer to Feb 5 to Feb 12/16? 

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1. Yes, a seller cannot be expected to start the shipping process (which starts with handling) until they get paid.

2. No. The delivery date is only based on the payment date + handling time + estimated transit time.

[momcqueen]

And I cannot lie about my handling time and add business days to it just to placate the whims of a fickle master; it would be akin slitting my own throat. Same-day shipping is IMPORTANT to my customers. My customers do not come to me for great deals; they shop at my store because they need something they cannot find anywhere else and they now need it fast. This, I know. My product and demographic, I know. If they had time left to wait around, they would not pay the prices I have set.