YET ANOTHER PayPal horror story...

[funkywatch_com]

Here is my story, just want to share it because hey, there is nothing I can do!

I sold an item on auction to a guy in India on December 12.

I receive his payment on December 19. The guy has a feedback rating of 1, but I don't check really, because I had high volumes and no time to spare. So I ship his watch the same day with CP Small Packets International.

Sends me a message on December 20 saying he's made is payment, ship it now, 'it's a gift for someone'.

I told him that it was send the previous day, and that he should normally receive it in 3-4 weeks, but probably sooner. He replies he's ordered from Canada before and it took only 10 days, so December 21st, I explain to him that I use CP guidelines for delivery standards, which are worst case scenario, but items are usually delivered faster than the guidelines state.

He replies he'll wait, and asks me to leave positive feedback, which I disregard.

Well today, December 26, I receive a Paypal email: 'First Request for Information About Buyer Complaint' !!!
Great... So the options I have are 'Sending a Refund', 'Sending Proof I Sent a Refund', or, 'Providing Tracking Information', which I don't have because I shipped Small Packet!

WHY is it possible that a buyer can file for non-receipt only 7 calendar days after sending payment???

I really don't get that part...

Merry Christmas!

eric

[marcopoloca]

paypal is trying to enourage usage at the expense of sellers, even if the other party is crooked.

[cartoonsinabox]

Eric,
I just had a similar client do the same to me in the USA for sending a t-shirt on the 21th of December and she filed a refund on the 24th through PAYPAL. Package was sent out SMALL PACKET AIR MAIL. Now I lost $46.00 US because I can not provide a tracking number. Tried to explain & argue this to PAYPAL half hour but they really don't care. This person I sent to has a comfirmed address with positive feedback of 6 transaction (she opened here account with Ebay only a few days before december 20th). I am guessing that she has done this to the other sellers. This is unbelieveble ! That Paypal would not provide me any information on this fraud client and would not even cancell her account.

PAYPAL DOESN'T CARE ABOUT SELLERS !!! I would like to find another company with a better service and better protection for the seller . Does anyone know of ??

Thank you
Fred

[alero0]

Just as retail stores have to put up with shoplifting we as online sellers have to put up with this type of fraud. These crooked buyers are the same as shoplifters. A retail store knows that he will be victim to shoplifting and protects himself by working his projected losses into his prices. We as online sellers should do the same. Though most buyers are honest, there will be a small percentage of them who are not. The fact that Paypal will not even attempt to give buyers any support to try to deture these Shoplifters we only have a few options to protect ourselves. We can stop accepting Paypal as a payment option which would be suicide because as a buyer, honest or not it's the cheapest and easiest method. Without that option we will definatly loose sales. Or, we can insure ourselves by adding a certain percentage to our prices and put it aside for those times when this shoplifting occures. (and unfortunatly it will)
There are honest people and dishonest people. This is just a fact of life that we have to accept. If Paypal won't protect us, we have to protect ourselves.
I prodict in the future, Paypal will offer us (for a fee) a Seller Protection Policy.

Harvey

[alero0]

are not. The fact that Paypal will not even attempt to give buyers any support

sellers

[bad_manors]

I have gone so far as to tell Pay Pal they are facilitating fraud and encouraging restraint of trade. I think I got up as far as a senior (?) supervisor. This just happened to me for the third time in three months. It's gotten expensive to use small packet air in the sense that PayPal arbitrarily does this. Purchasers can actually file a dispute within one day of paying. And if you can't provide a tracking number, the dispute is automatically settled in favour of the complainant.
As for resdtraint of trade, I had a discussion with another supervisor. He suggested going to a more expensive service. I told him that it made us uncompetitive. He said something to the effect that Pay Pal doesn't care and idn't prepared to commit the resources to deal with this. Oh for a tape recorder.

So now we've got Canada Post, Pay Pal and EBay (being Pay Pal's parent) apparently saying too bad, so sad.
It looks like the only answer is to go to Fed Ex or UPS.

Your thoughts?

Brad

[funkywatch_com]

In my case UPS and Fedex are not cost effective since 95% of my shipments weight less than 1 lbs. Also I have tried UPS' online shipping and I found it extremely time consuming, in comparison with CP's software. It took me 2-3x more time to ship with UPS and it was slightly confusing too. I have not tried Fedex's though.

I wonder if there would be a way to interest CP into adding any kind of tracking for the Small Packet service.

I mean with repeated price increases, I believe there should be additional services. Even if it's optional and that we have to pay extra for it, i'd be willing to add another dollar or so to get tracking.

Paypal fraud has cost me close to $400 since November, and I am pretty sure that I will get some more of those emails in January. I won't be the only one either...

[esellerauction]

I have lost a couple of Hundred dollars in the last 1/4 as well. So now I don't ship anywhere except NorthAmerica now.
Paypal is totally not representing sellers. And there reply is read our policy's. I have ZERO respect for Paypal. The only way I will send overseas is if they send WesternUnion money order.
Merry Giftmas.

[recped]

Here's the recommended procedure in these cases.

PayPal give you 10 days to respond, wait until day 9 and hope the buyer receives the item.

If the buyer does not receive, refund the payment and inform the buyer that you have done so and ask that ge resends payment when the item arrives.

If the buyer never comes through then file a claim with Canada Post (assuming small packets with included $100 insurance).

There is no point in attempting to fight PayPal over the dispute, refunding eliminates any possibility of having your account frozen and also I believe there may be a service charge is the dispute is found in favour of the buyer (perhaps that's only via a credit card chargeback).

It's maybe 50/50 that your buyer will be honest and pay up when the item arrives but if not you may find some happiness filing a claim with Canada Post (use a copy of your refund to establish the value).

Lots of aggravation but this is the best you can do as sellers cannot win a dispute for non-delivery of untraceable small packets of lettermail.

Ben
"What else could I do? I had no trade so I became a peddler" - Lazarus Greenberg 1915

[sunshynecraftsbeads]

I had a situation such as this myself as well.

After going through the whole thing I am very leary on selling to international buyers and this is why.

A Canadian seller will never win a international case if it is filed and you have no tracker number. This was told to me from a actual Paypal rep when I called them regarding the customer.

First, under the paypal protection policies we so not qualify because we are not a confirmed address on Paypal regardless of whether we meet all other criteria.

Secondly, did not have proof of shipment.


In my case the customer made the purchase, put a paypal complaint in after 2 weeks. The person emailed me 2 - 3 times a day wanting the money back. We went back and forth taking the time to let the customer know that it takes 6 - 8 weeks.

Anyways the end result was that Paypal refunded the customer over $100.00 for the purchase. Charged me $10.00 as well plus they made the money from the original deposit. My supplier was not going to refund the money to me for the purchase because as far as they were concerned it was shipped out. Ebay received there commission and would not reverse charges so I lost a lot of money.

After the dispute was closed and the 45 days had passed I received a email from the customer thanking me for the items. To top it off the customer left me negative feedback.

I think every ebay seller goes through this at one time or another but I do feel it is important to let you know from personal experience that as the rules stand right now with paypal, Canadian sellers will NOT win a dispute ever against a international buyer if you do not have proof of a tracking number to support that you shipped the package.

So you only have 2 choices. Sell internationally as a unconfirmed seller and take your chances or don't sell internationally until paypal changes there policies for Canadians

[tobyshitzu]

That the SELLER is unconfirmed is irrelevant to anything. The policy is to send with delivery confirmation to a buyer with confirmed (or otehrwise stating elgible for spp) address in one of the countris covered by spp. Considering the low odds of a problem and the increased cost of mailing (if item can go untracked cheaper) its generally not with worrying about IMO and just chalk up the rare loss as a cost of doing business.

[alero0]

Secondly, did not have proof of shipment.PayPal
Here's a post that I made in March of this year that shows that even with proof of delivery we have no protection

Chargeback Problem
alero0 (327 ) View Listings | Report 25-03-05 15:26 EST
Hi gang,
I'm looking for a bit of advice.
On Feb. 17 I shipped a parcel to Flordia using CP Expedited.
March 2nd I received a notice from paypal that the buyer never received his parcel and was claiming his money back so paypal would freeze those funds until they investigated the matter. I fowarded them the tracking number to prove that the package was shipped.
March 3rd I emailed CP explaining the situation asking them to look into where the package may be.
March 7th CP emailed me saying they were in touch with USPS and they said a delivery notice was left in the recipients PO Box and the package could be picked up at their local post office.
I emailed this info. to the buyer and also called long distance and spoke to the buyer's wife explaining what happened. She claimed they never got the notice but will check with the post office.
March 8th I received notification that the package was successfully delivered.
That night I emailed the buyer to get in touch with Paypal to advise them that they got their package.
Long story short, I never heard a word from the buyer and today I received notification from paypal that the buyer was rewarded his money and I had to pay an additional $10.00 service charge.
Throughout all this time I've been fowarding all the CP corespondences and tracking info. to Paypal but never got a reply from them.
Today I emailed the buyer saying:

Brandon,

I have just received notice that paypal refunded your money and charged me for it. It is my belief that you have received your covers and made a false claim. In doing so I will proceed in making a report to Canada Post and USPS reporting your actions. You should be warned that it is a Federal offence in the US for mail fraud. Should you have in fact picked up your covers at your post office there will be records of it and you may in fact be prosecuted. The total costs to me by your actions are $62.00 for the speaker covers + S+H and an additional service charged which I had to pay of $10.00. Should you wish to settle this matter please contact me.

Harvey

[tekhnologies]

I have had the same exact problem and I am appealing to the problem at this very moment with long long emails to the paypal representatives who do not give me any information whatsoever to solve the situation. A chargeback has already been done to my account. Unfortunately, Paypal is very useless in the perspective that they will not take into consideration our situation to solve the problem equally for both parties.

The small packet disadvantage also applies to shipmentes sent to the UNITED STATES as well. It does not only occur to international destinations. Just the fact that we are using SMALL PACKET shipping method is a disadvantage for us for us to allow fraud to occur where false claims could occur.

[cartoonsinabox]

Sorry to let you down but PAYPAL is american and IS ONLY FAIR TO AMERICANS. Canadian unfortunately, don't play in the same league. Thats why PAYPAL is a FRAUD COMPANY. I have argued with them this week about a client IN THE USA that made a claim 2 days later after we had sent her package via CANADA POST SMALL PACKET. The Paypal representive was tellying me IF YOU DON'T HAVE A TRACKING NUMBER THERE NOTHING WE CAN DO FOR YOU. AND WE ARE NOT GOING TO GIVE YOU ANY INFORMATION ON CLIENT TO HELP GET MONEY BACK...

I asked them if they had plans to at least cancell this clients membership for fraud (THE MANAGER REPLIED : NO, THERE NO PROOF OF FRAUD, BUT PAYPAL IS WORKING WITH YOU). We like your money but we don't care about second class canadians.

(Sorry I am just .... off about this company, And I can't seriously do anything. IF I want to keep doing business on Ebay I have to accept PAYPAL). THE AMERICAN WAY...

[alero0]

Using Small Packet, Paypal has the "Legal Right" (not that I agree with them at all) to say you don't have a tracking number so you don't have any proof that the item was sent.
In my case I did have a tracking # and proof of delivery and they still took my money and charged me a $10. fee on top of it. What was I suppose to do, take them to court? Life is to short and when you're banging your head against a brick wall, the wall usually wins.
All we can do is bend over and hope it doesn't hurt too much. (Excuse the referance)

Harvey

[whoscloset]

Ouch, thanks for the reference Harvey. 😉

Like I keep saying, it's a cost of doing business in this forum. At least I don't have to worry about daily shop-lifting like my sister who owns a Home Hardware. If you take it personally every time it happens you are in the wrong business/hobby and maybe you should find another.

JMHO,
Monique

[novafashions]

"Like I keep saying, it's a cost of doing business......" "If you take it personally every time it happens you are in the wrong business/hobby......"

Monique is right.... it is the only real option available unfortunately, flaws and all.

Re scamming buyers.... I know of two instances where sellers took it to the next level and got their item or money back(both American sellers, one with a buyer in the US (item) and one with a buyer in Japan (money).

It involved some time and sending correspondence to the authorities in each jurisdiction.

I do think scammers count on the fact that sellers won't devote the time to follow up, and sometimes it's just not feasible to do so.

Unfortunately sometimes buyers have been burned by sellers, and so they jump the gun too.

Sorry for your trouble Eric, that has to be very frustrating.

Lynn

[jenzaka]

Just curious....Have any of you ever WON a paypal dispute? I realize that we mostly hear the vents from those of us who feel we've been burned but I would still like to think that maybe a seller somewhere at some time has actually won a paypal dispute.
If no one steps forward with a positive story here, then I guess we are all wasting our time providing tracking info and valid reasons as to why we are in the right. We might as well just hand over the money from the get go and save ourselves the time.
jenzaka

[whoscloset]

I did win one when I met their criteria....shipped to a confirmed address with tracking and delivery confirmation.

If they do a charge-back on their CC, however, it doesn't matter what hoops you jump through, PayPal won't back you up.

Monique

[jewelbay]

if someone wants to defraud you..they WILL defraud you.
my nightmare one:

in one of my famous paypal chargebacks cases, the buyer using paypal use one of them credit cards on paypal that allows frauds chargeback ... if the buyer files a complaint with their credit card company (a) didn't get item or(b) item wasn't what they order!! (they don't even even have to return item) and they get money back from their credit card issuer!..who get it back from paypal..who chargeback the seller.ME!.

nightmare 2

woman claims someone used her credit card falsely...I already send item..paypal chargeback me.in spite of their purpose safe guards this doesn't happens to paypal sellers. I lose item. shipping. and have to refund buyer.

nightmare 3..not mine thanks god

friend sells boat on ebay motors..

get paid via paypal..

buyer files a never got item claim..my friend loses his boat and 700.00 that paypal took off his credit card in a chargeback.

nice really nice..