seller falsifying international shipping documents

[brogreg62]

received an e-mail from a seller saying they were falsifying the international shipping documents sending the item as a gift and putting a lower value on the documents than what i paid and if my government caught it at the border it was my problem and not his
first off this is a federal offense in either Country Canada or the USA and i am refusing to receive anything
that was sent this way
i have requested my money back and the seller has refused unless i accept the item and ship it back
if i recieve the item knowing that the documents are false i will be  committing a federal offense 

i will be contacting

USPS, Canada post the FBI and R.C.M.P as well as the Canadian border services agency and the US customs and border protection

[pierrelebel]

"no one can come up with a single case"

Toby I am personally aware of at least two such cases where the importer was "blacklisted" by CRA because of valuation problems.

While I am not personally involved in these cases, I am aware of the inconvenience and costs to the importer.

[i*m-still-here]

There are absolutely cases where an importer will be blacklisted for CRA violations.

With out a doubt there are many many more than 2.

There are probably thousands such cases in Canada alone and many more which involve Canadians shipping out of the country as well.

Most have probably been reported somewhere under the heading of "smuggling."

However, these would be large scale importers, or at least large scale when compared to the type of ebay sins discussed above.

Trust Me: These cases are not about a few under declared ebay items.

[pierrelebel]

"these would be large scale importers"

NO.  I am referring to individuals, not businesses.

[i*m-still-here]

Well, that has me curious.

I'd want to know details.

I just can't picture that someone buying on ebay would be in serious legal trouble because some seller worried about DSRs decided to alter custom's forms.

[i*m-still-here]

I do know that there was a time when I imported/exported shipments in the $100,000 range.

I'm pretty sure that had I messed with those numbers .......... which I would never have done for a myriad of reasons............ 

and been caught and convicted that my right to import/export would have been pulled or at least severely restricted.

Is that the kind of thing you're talking about?

That's very different from the type of scenario discussed above where one's control is very limited.

There is no comparison.

If that's what you're talking about?

[pierrelebel]

"I'd want to know details."

???

I am sorry.  I do not "kiss and tell". 🙂

As individuals we all have different experiences.  We often rely on those experiences to make decisions.  However, not everyone experience the same events.

For example, I had always understood that if you drive through a red light you may get a ticket.  Yellow was OK.

That was until the day (back in 1982) I was stopped for burning a yellow light and given a ticket.  When I explained to the officer that the light was not yet red the reply I received was simple: "you are getting a ticket for going through a yellow light.  It is against the law."

I paid.

Then there is that comcept many drivers have that as long as you drive no more than 20 k/h above the speed limit, you will not be bothered by the police.  I believed it until I was stopped and given a ticket for going 116 in a 100k/h zone (highway 401).  I did not bother to ask the officer.  I paid.

That is the simple reality of the world we live in.  We all have different experiences and because something has not yet happened to us does not mean it does not exist or will not happen.

[Anonymous]

For Brogreg, simply print the PayPal Invoice and show it to the custom duty so they can see the exactly amount you paid for it and that you didn't fasley the documents or whatever and the custom department may charge you the exact duty fees based on your invoice. 

1) Print the invoice.

2) Wait until you get the parcel and see how much duty taxes, if way too much, bring the invoice to the post office or custom department, depending on your area.

I did that a few times and it worked beautiful each time.

So why all the fuss in the first place?

From my past experience, it was the person at the custom department that fasley put higher amount on the shipping label and we caught it due to different color ink (It is amazed that whoever did that would be that stupid by using a differnet pen color ink to do that!!) and I showed up with my invoice and they adjusted me for way much lower custom duty fees and all was done fine.  Even that guy at the custom department who dealed with me, got upset as it was against the law to do that and to my understanding that whoever did that was fired. 

[rose-dee]

Well, if anyone is interested in a dose of reality, not urban legend, conjecture or anecdote, see the attached document, containing some excerpts from the Customs Act.  I've highlighted some especially relevant portions (I didn't bother with the Excise Tax Act as that deals primarily with HST/GST).  You can put this in a file somewhere for future reference, or the "round file" if you like to play the odds.  See especially "Liability" (bottom of pg.1), and the highlighted "Punishment" paragraphs (pg. 3). 

To respond to the comment that proceedings in this area aren't made more public, see the highlighted section at the bottom of page 2.  Generally it's only when these matters escalate to Federal Court or the Tax Court of Canada that they become public, through the courts' usual reporting functions.  The press usually doesn't take much interest in these cases unless they have a sensational twist, and the "small fish" who are caught up in customs proceedings remain unknowns.

By the way, if some are wondering how on earth I got this information, I spent years as a legal researcher/paralegal in corporate-commercial and tax law (yawn!), so excerpting portions of statutes was a frequent chore. I still have CanLII bookmarked.

To add to Pierre's comments, falsifying customs information or knowingly accepting such falsification is a personal decision that may or may not have consequences.  Granted, it's a big roulette game with big odds that work in the average person's favour -- do with this information as you see fit. 

P.S. - Couldn't upload in Word format, I have to change to .txt - see next post 

[rose-dee]

It seems I'm this system won't allow me to upload the files in .rtf or Word.  I could scan it to JPEG, but only 2 images are permitted (there are 3 pgs). 

If anyone knows how to upload a Word document to this board, please advise! 

[stevephinn2012]

Even CRA is very limited as to what information they release due to privacy laws

I beg to disagree! if you go to the CRA website they continue to post individuals AND companies that have been caught in tax fraud in one way or another. they also out line the penalty

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/nwsrm/cnvctns/on/menu-eng.html     that is ontario there is a page for each province that is updated regularly

[rose-dee]

It seems I'm this system won't allow me to upload the files in .rtf or Word.  I could scan it to JPEG, but only 2 images are permitted (there are 3 pgs). 

I've given up trying to upload this document, as I have to leave these boards to get back to my designing work.  For anyone who is interested, I've pasted the most important sections (ignore the odd formatting).  If you'd like all 3 pages, just message me through my store.:8}

**************************

Customs Act [excerpts]

• Liability

(3) Whenever the importer of the goods that have been released or any person authorized under paragraph 32(6)(a) or subsection 32(7) to account for goods becomes liable under this Act to pay duties on those goods, the owner of the goods at the time of release becomes jointly and severally, or solidarily, liable, with the importer or person authorized, to pay the duties.

Measures to protect customs information

(11) The person presiding at a legal proceeding relating to the supervision, evaluation or discipline of a specified person may order any measure that is necessary to ensure that customs information is not used or provided to any person for any purpose not relating to that proceeding, including

• (a) holding a hearing in camera;


• (b) banning the publication of the information;


• (c) concealing the identity of the person to whom the information relates; and


• (d) sealing the records of the proceeding.

Prohibitions, Offences and Punishment

General

False statements, evasion of duties

153. No person shall

(a) make, or participate in, assent to or acquiesce in the making of, false or deceptive statements in a statement or answer made orally or in writing pursuant to this Act or the regulations;

General offence and punishment

• 160. (1) Every person who contravenes section 11, 12, 13, 15 or 16, subsection 20(1), section 31 or 40, subsection 43(2), 95(1) or (3), 103(3) or 107(2) or section 153, 155, 156 or 159.1 or commits an offence under section 159 or knowingly contravenes an order referred to in subsection 107(11)

(a) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction and liable to a fine of not more than fifty thousand dollars or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to both that fine and that imprisonment; or

(b) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to a fine of not more than five hundred thousand dollars or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years or to both that fine and that imprisonment.

[gotwhatchuneed]

Well I'm pretty sure any form of gambling for actual cash unless it's by the gaming authority is a federal offence, (that includes dollar ante poker or 5 bucks on the game.)

probably paying the neighbours kid 20 bucks to cut the lawn is in violation of some child labour law,

Not declaring your cash from a yard sale is technically tax evasion (also a federal offence)

Everyone has probably broken some federal laws some stupid things like i listed just aren't worth pursuing.

it would cost more in administration costs to re assess every package coming in than they would ever recoup because I think it's mostly just a few dollars per package.

[rose-dee]

it would cost more in administration costs to re assess every package coming in than they would ever recoup because I think it's mostly just a few dollars per package.

Probably true unless you sell for some time on eBay and want to continue to sell to the US and overseas for years to come, especially items of higher value.  Sooner or later the statistics may catch up with you (or possibly not - but every time is another risk). 

It's the documentation that differentiates this risk from yard sales and cash deals in the neighbourhood.  It doesn't take much in admin. costs to run a computer search on computerized documentation like Paypal/Cda Post online labels and forms. 

If most eBay sellers decided to cheat to save their buyers money on customs (I know -- we wish we could), buyers would avoid honest sellers, and how long would it take for eBay to be shut down?

[pierrelebel]

"CRA website they continue to post individuals AND companies that have been caught in tax fraud"

Look carefully.  All you find on the site are those stupid enough to fight and get convicted.  The vast majority of folks simply have their lawyer negotiate a deal, pay the fine with interest and go on with their lives.

However, that is not what we are talking about here.  Let's go back to basics: individuals receiving imports that have been misdeclared or with value underdeclared.  If spotted by a Customs agent, their names and addresses may be flagged so future imports are checked more closely.  Nothing to do with a legal conviction for tax fraud.

[pierrelebel]

For example, I have knowledge of a seller on eBay.ca who, years ago, collected 5% GST from his Canadian customers and an extra 8% PST if the buyer was located in Ontario.

He was not registered to collect taxes and pocketed the money.  Why?  "that more or less offset my eBay fees".

He has since passed away.  The executor of his estate was surprised to receive a tax re-assessment from CRA for those unreported tax amounts.  It had taken CRA four years to put the case together for less than $500 (plus penalty and interest).  I do not know how they got the information together but, based on my own audit experience, I guess they match every PayPal receipt and added up the difference between eBay reported selling price and shipping and amounts received.

These guys do not work at the same speed as we expect.  Here on eBay, we list in minutes, we sell in days, we ship immediately, rush, rush, rush. 

CRA does not work that quickly.

[i*m-still-here]

Calling the FBI and RCMP because the numbers for an ebay were wonky is akin to the lady who called 911 because her Big Mac took longer than promised.

A step away from that.

Do you really want those resources wasted on issues like this?

Imagine if everyone did that?

The motive for this crime??

An ebay seller worried about DSRs and FB fudged the numbers.

Chances are extremely high that the PO wouldn't have bothered to collect taxes and/or duty for a $44 item even if declared at the selling price.

Is that a crime too?

Pretty thin line between what the seller did and what the PO does thousands of times each and every day.

[rose-dee]

If I found myself in the same situation as the OP, I admit that I'd probably just report the seller to eBay and Canada Post and let them take it from there and involve other law authorities if necessary.  How do we know from what the OP told us that this seller wasn't involved a far bigger and more significant fraudulent practice, or for a longer time?  The FBI, RCMP, etc. might just be interested after all...

The personal legal risk for the buyer aside (which, as stated earlier, is real but arguably slim in this instance), do we as sellers really want other sellers to make a habit of fudging customs declarations with impunity?  Consider the larger implications.  EBay has to keep a lid on this behaviour if the site is to remain in business.

And yes, as Pierre says, the CRA moves very slowly and quietly but they don't give up and they don't care if the fish they finally catch isn't very big.  Having worked at the other end of the problem, in this area of law, I've seen many ordinary people end up in federal Tax Court.  Many do manage to cut a deal with the Crown, but ultimately they lose money in years of legal fees and interest on amounts owing, and some wreck their health through stress.  I'd rather just pay what's due when due.

[salesgroupcanada]

I don't believe a black list really exists.

I bought ninja stars thinking they were cool

Turns out it's an illegal weapon in Canada

Really Canada... Ninja Stars but Samurai Swords are ok

Anyways, I've gotten tons of stuff since with no customs search at all

Thank god they didn't think I was some drug dealer and showed up at my door to arrest me with a planned delivery.

[brandeentertainment]

LOL what are you selling drugs in china town or something... LOL Been a long time sense I seen a drug dealer with ninja stars .. Mind you that would be pretty cool LOL .. just jking around

[i*m-still-here]

Just wondering about opinions on this:

If you sell a $200 Gold Ring to someone in the States and have decided to ship without insurance and via light packets .............

Do you think there's anything wrong with filling out the custom's forms to say it's a toy ring valued at $5?

Since the selling price is below their limit.........

Does anyone feel that's unethical or illegal or that's there is anything wrong with that practice.

That would be by far the safest way to ship, as the fact that it getting shipped via light packets is not open to debate... :).

The government doesn't care if it's valued at $5 or $200 (In fact, I'm not sure that the US gov't even collects on $500 items............).

But it would be falsifying shipping documents.

Just wondering what you think?