seller falsifying international shipping documents

[brogreg62]

received an e-mail from a seller saying they were falsifying the international shipping documents sending the item as a gift and putting a lower value on the documents than what i paid and if my government caught it at the border it was my problem and not his
first off this is a federal offense in either Country Canada or the USA and i am refusing to receive anything
that was sent this way
i have requested my money back and the seller has refused unless i accept the item and ship it back
if i recieve the item knowing that the documents are false i will be  committing a federal offense 

i will be contacting

USPS, Canada post the FBI and R.C.M.P as well as the Canadian border services agency and the US customs and border protection

[i*m-still-here]

It took me a quite a while to really understand what the OP was asking.

As a consumer, there are so many cautions and risks to buying on eBay, that the possibility that a seller might under-declare one of my items hasn't even been on my radar until now.

In fact, until now I have never even glanced at the declarations............ not even on those rare occasions when I'm asked to pay taxes etc.

I just pay and get on with it.............. 

I can't believe I've never paid attention before.

For all I know sellers could be under-declaring my items left right and centre.

I'll start watching for it right away now that I know I should be calling in the F.B.I. and R.C.M.P. to take care of those Dirty Rotten Scoundrels.

I'll bet all kinds of sellers have been pulling that one on me without my knowledge.

The GSP, the loss of ebay bucks, rising ebay fees, the fear of NFB etc...................

And now: Another thing to worry about!

[rose-dee]

If you have the exact same item listed and one sells for 19 dollars and 80 dollars shipping and one vice versa 80 dollars and 19 dollars shipping is that not a grey area? I'm buying the one with high shipping cause I'll save atleast 40 dollars of duty, taxes and brokerage fee crap.

This wasn't a moral or ethical problem at all.  It was a clear situation of the buyer being put at risk legally because the seller told him that he/she was deliberately falsifying the customs declaration.  If the seller had said nothing and simply shipped the item, no one might have known or cared (but see below).  Here the seller was implicating the buyer in the fraud -- it is still fraud the last time I checked. The OP didn't tell us what the item was, or its value, but obviously the higher the value, the bigger the risk.

If a seller uses Paypal online labelling, the record of the price of the purchased item flows through eBay to Paypal to Canada Post, meaning that those details can potentially be checked.  Granted, there are probably thousands upon thousands of transactions per day, but all takes is one red flag at the border to end your buying days. 

If a seller chooses to lie on a hand-filled customs form, without being asked by the buyer to do so, and without telling the buyer, then it is an ethical issue, and not worth pursuing.  This was a radically different situation, and frankly if a seller approached me in this manner, I'd report him/her immediately to eBay and to Border Services. 

To be honest, I have trouble seeing how the seller thought that this practise was going to get him anywhere in the long run.  Would you leave positive FB and top DSRs for a seller who told you he was falsifying the customs declaration, but it was your problem?  The illegality of it aside, this seems pretty aggressive and not very customer-friendly to me!

[rose-dee]

To "gotwhatchuneed" -  A couple of things I wanted to add:

"[...] the same level as a person buying from a yard sale where they know the seller isn't likely going to claim the money on their income tax."

When you buy across borders, you're no longer in yard sale, under-the-table, cash only territory, but in the jurisdiction of federal law, and there is documentation - this makes all the difference. 

"If you have the exact same item listed and one sells for 19 dollars and 80 dollars shipping and one vice versa 80 dollars and 19 dollars shipping is that not a grey area? I'm buying the one with high shipping cause I'll save atleast 40 dollars of duty, taxes and brokerage fee crap."

You're quite right here.  If the seller decides his item is worth $19 and he wants to charge $80 in shipping, that's what goes on the invoice, that's what goes on the customs form, and that's the legitimate price paid. 

Many sellers will play with selling price and shipping price, especially when selling to Europe, where customs and taxes are outrageous for items over $30, and especially if the adjustment doesn't lower the item price too much.  It's the seller's prerogative to set his/her price, nothing illegal about that.  So for example, rather than charge $35 for the item and $15 for shipping, charge $29 for the item and $21 for shipping (or even reduce shipping a few dollars).  This makes seller happy (a sale!) and buyer happy (no customs)!

[cumos55]

So  Customs declaration is $29.00

and actual shipping is $15.00.

Now what is the value of an insurance claim for an item sold for $35.00 on ebay with $15.00 shipping.

No one will make a  $6.00 adjustment.

Now what if the customs declaration states $29  for an item sold for $95.00 on eBay.

What is the value  for an insurance claim..... Is it $29.00 as stated on record with Canada Post  or the $95.00 rthe actual sale price. .

Canada Post  will use the $29.00 on record with Canada Post.....Seller loses...

[cumos55]

Could get even more interesting if the eBay sales record submitted to Canada Post for that insurance claim shows $95.00

[tobyshitzu]

"you might find yourself on the receiving end of a fraud investigation and possible charges. "

If you have information that this has happened there is a long running (years) thread on the com international board where the challenge was given to provide credible information that has ever happened for an ebay or similar (item to consumer) purchase.  No one has ever provided such info, despite it being pretty obvious it would be newsworthy if it did.   The notion is absurd

[2011limey1]

I am privileged to have Queen Elizabeth's private cell no.(I know, I know, but yes, I always have tea with her, Phil and the kids when I'm over there.) I relayed your dilemma, to which she replied "Tell the dear boy to take a chill pill - I'm not going to lose any sleep over it".She couldn't elaborate more as she was on her 3rd favourite beverage, Dubonnet & Gin.  So, you'll be o.k.and if the worst comes to the worst, I'll put some money into your account when you're in jail so you can get some good commissary goodies.

[dipmicro]

"you might find yourself on the receiving end of a fraud investigation and possible charges. "

If you have information that this has happened there is a long running (years) thread on the com international board where the challenge was given to provide credible information that has ever happened for an ebay or similar (item to consumer) purchase.  No one has ever provided such info, despite it being pretty obvious it would be newsworthy if it did.   The notion is absurd

It's a popular myth. People like to throw around "this is illegal, that is illegal" 🙂

Customs has no grounds for any charges, because receiver cannot be liable for actions of the sender.

Also I don't think postal customs are sophisticated enough to flag anyone. Everyone knows how mail over $20 slips through without duties and taxes. If they had sophistication to flag sender/receiver, no mail would slip through unprocessed.

[portabuddy]

ignoring all the nonsens,,,

You can apply for a re-certification of the item. not illigal to accept it juast claim a mistake was made. the seller simply needs to send you a signed copy if the new Bill of laiding. 

Stating the new value and designation. its really easy.

Ive had to do this several times when people ship me items to modify. they ship the items a "for sale" "$1000"... WTF??? so I pay the duties and tax. have the item re-classified properly. get refunded and send it back.

[cumos55]

Then everything we see on the new TV show called "Border Security " is a set up..

Specifically how they can identify suspicious  parcels coming into Canada.

[i*m-still-here]

No, it's not a set up.  National Geographic does not fool around.

The show you described depicts ""belligerent visitors smuggling contraband, toys packed with heroin, weapons disguised as cell phones, etc.

Little do they know: That's just the tip of the iceberg!

If they dig deep enough it's inevitable  that they will discover scores of ebay items which have been under-declared.

They just need to look a little harder!

Too bad they haven't found a way to train dogs to sniff the offending parcels out yet.

[rose-dee]

To "cumos55" --

"So  Customs declaration is $29.00 and actual shipping is $15.00.

 Now what is the value of an insurance claim for an item sold for $35.00 on ebay with $15.00 shipping. No one will make a  $6.00 adjustment.

Now what if the customs declaration states $29  for an item sold for $95.00 on eBay.

What is the value  for an insurance claim..... Is it $29.00 as stated on record with Canada Post  or the $95.00 rthe actual sale price.

Canada Post  will use the $29.00 on record with Canada Post.....Seller loses.."

You may have misunderstood what I was saying.  I wasn't referring to misrepresenting the numbers on customs forms, but actually reducing the selling price to help reduce customs charges for buyers, especially in Europe.  I always use online labelling, so whatever an item sells for is what goes on the Paypal/Cda Post online form.  

For Europe, $30 seems to be the magic "duty-free" number; for the US I believe it's $200.  I've sometimes reduce the listing price of items that I might otherwise list over those limits, in order to attract buyers. And I've occasionally reduced shipping by $5 or $10 to get a US or overseas sale. But I admit I probably wouldn't reduce an item worth $80 to $29.   

To those who have stated the buyer has no responsibility or legal exposure where imported items are under-valued for customs purposes, check the Excise Tax Act of Canada and eBay's guidelines on customs.  Everyone thinks customs fraud is a joke until it's their own problem. As Pierre mentioned, you can end up (at the least) being blacklisted as an importer -- the sheer number of imports that are involved make the risk slim, but the risk is there.  Also, in this particular OP's case, it doesn't sound like the seller would be very cooperative in revising the paperwork.  I still maintain the OP took the appropriate action. 

[tobyshitzu]

Ouch, I hadn't noticed the op negged his seller for trying to help him with his $45 purchase.  No wonder so many dont want to send to canada.  When i first saw this thread I figured it was someone trolling as it was too absurd to be serious

"but the risk is there"

Of all the many people who have claimed this, not one has ever backed it up with a single example from anywhere where there was any consequence to the sender or receiver beyond having to pay the amount owing on a revalued amount.  If you have some information on this you could be the one to end the years long thread with ebayers from around the world having failed to come up with a single case. 

[pierrelebel]

"Of all the many people who have claimed this, not one has ever backed it up with a single example"

Toby, do you really expect anyone who has been caught by CRA to come publicly on these forums and explain what he did wrong?

You expect too much!

We all know CRA has been all over eBay sellers for years for both GST/HST and income tax audits.  Many of us who came out with a clean audit took the time to explain the painful process. 😞  

However, I do not recall a single instance of a poster who had not declared or underdeclared his online business income, audited and ordered to pay taxes, penalties and interest posting on these boards. Folks just do not do that.

It is like trying to prove a negative. Not possible.

[tobyshitzu]

I expect it would have made the news, and one of the many who make claims about "charged with fraud" online would have been able to come up with an online reference to it.  It would be in customs authorities interest to make sure it made the news if people were "being investigated or charge for fraud" because a seller lowered the value on their ebay or similar customs form.

[pierrelebel]

"would have made the news"

The media does not care unless a "big name" is involved. That "stuff" does not make headlines or sell newspaper. 

Even CRA is very limited as to what information they release due to privacy laws.

Since you do not have the problem, that is great for you. Keep doing what you are doing and do not worry about it. Life is too short for that.

[pierrelebel]

"would have made the news"

The last time I remember a case of fraud made public by CRA is Amway, about 30 years ago:

http://www.amquix.info/aus/canada.htm 

[i*m-still-here]

Publicizing when laws get broken is a powerful deterrent.  That's one of the purposes/jobs of newspapers.

I am not advocating the practice in any way............... but have you ever read about someone getting charged wtth under-declaring an ebay item?

I haven't.

If this were taking place, then someone somewhere would have put it print by now.

This seems to be one of those laws that isn't enforced.

I'd be curious to know if anyone has ever encountered a US buyer who had to pay taxes and or duty on an ebay item.

My American friends tell me that they can import items with values well over the legal limit and NEVER have to pay taxes etc.

They tell me it's unheard of in the US.

Just wondering because it also looks like the USA isn't very concerned about this issue either.

I stopped paying attention to declarations on the packages I received a long time ago.

One reason for that is because unless postage was bought on line, the hand printed values on the forms are illegible by the time they reach me.

When it is legible it almost always takes a lot of straining to make it out, but most of the time the package could say $8 or $8,000 and no one would be able to decipher it.

That is not by design.  It's a result of handling along the way.

It's also an important consideration when evaluating the seriousness of this crime..... or whatever you choose to call it.

[tobyshitzu]

tons of "tax fraud"cases make the news.  current google news search for cra tax fraud turns up two cases in the first few results.  They don't have to make anything public, it already is.   Local paper has cut most of their staff but still keeps reporter at the court house to report on every minor conviction

Yet no one can come up with a single case that would be comparable to the op, ever, anywhere.  It would be international news if someone ever got nailed for their seller mailing an item as a gift or lowering the value.  That is not comparable to drug smuggling or amway running a scheme

[i*m-still-here]

  It would be international news if someone ever got nailed for their seller mailing an item as a gift or lowering the value.  

That's right on the button.

If someone got charged and/convicted for such an offence it would be well publicized.

First: There would the entertainment value.

Second: It has to be publicized to make the general public aware that it is in fact a crime with consequences.  That's the way our society functions.