Welcome to a place where Christ should be exalted and "Self" should be abased!!
Welcome to a place where the BIBLE can be discussed rationally, intelligently, and positively without unnecessary argument!!
Welcome to a place where prayer can be requested and encouraged!!
Welcome to a place where positive and encouraging thoughts from scripture can be shared in a caring and loving way!!
Welcome to a place away from all the arguments, recriminations, and negativity of the outside world!!
Welcome to a place of rest and safety!!
Welcome to a place where Philippians 2:3 is practiced: "Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves."
Welcome to this Christian thread.
(Please leave all aggression, bitterness, and philosophy outside the door and please wipe your feet before coming inside!!)
I live in my own little world. But it's OK... They know me Here!
Welcome to a place where the BIBLE can be discussed rationally, intelligently, and positively without unnecessary argument!!
Welcome to a place where prayer can be requested and encouraged!!
Welcome to a place where positive and encouraging thoughts from scripture can be shared in a caring and loving way!!
Welcome to a place away from all the arguments, recriminations, and negativity of the outside world!!
Welcome to a place of rest and safety!!
Welcome to a place where Philippians 2:3 is practiced: "Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves."
Welcome to this Christian thread.
(Please leave all aggression, bitterness, and philosophy outside the door and please wipe your feet before coming inside!!)
I live in my own little world. But it's OK... They know me Here!
The context of the subject matter about those who wish to change or eliminate the word Christmas is worth talking about but not when it’s used to cover up a political agenda.
Strangely enough, the idea of eliminating the word Christmas was started by a political agenda, not one that I personally embrace. It appears to be impossible to discuss this subject matter without bringing politics, legalism, and secular humanism into the debate, as it corners on that ever-touchy subject of church vs. state.
While the author of the article I posted appears to be right-winged, that is his leaning and the springboard from which his article originates. Fine - I have no problem with that. But reading between the lines I cn see that he stands in a long line of Christians who have stood up for justice: John Brown, Henry Ward Beecher, Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., Mary Elizabeth Clark, Catherine Doherty, Mother Teresa, Walter Rauschenbusch, Nat Turner, Harriet Tubman, Nanne Zweip, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, etc. Christians have stood against slavery, discrimination, war, poverty, homelessness, hunger, unemployment, regressive taxation, and on, and on, and on, often well before the secular world cared about the issues.
The secular world does not like to see Christians take a stand and fight the hosility against their faith. In fact, the secular world banks on it, thinking we wil remain silent and "turn the other cheek". But fight we must, as wimpy Christians will not survive spiritual warfare.
--- Remember: You don't stop laughing because you grow old...you grow old because you stop laughing. 🙂
Strangely enough, the idea of eliminating the word Christmas was started by a political agenda, not one that I personally embrace. It appears to be impossible to discuss this subject matter without bringing politics, legalism, and secular humanism into the debate, as it corners on that ever-touchy subject of church vs. state.
While the author of the article I posted appears to be right-winged, that is his leaning and the springboard from which his article originates. Fine - I have no problem with that. But reading between the lines I cn see that he stands in a long line of Christians who have stood up for justice: John Brown, Henry Ward Beecher, Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., Mary Elizabeth Clark, Catherine Doherty, Mother Teresa, Walter Rauschenbusch, Nat Turner, Harriet Tubman, Nanne Zweip, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, etc. Christians have stood against slavery, discrimination, war, poverty, homelessness, hunger, unemployment, regressive taxation, and on, and on, and on, often well before the secular world cared about the issues.
The secular world does not like to see Christians take a stand and fight the hosility against their faith. In fact, the secular world banks on it, thinking we wil remain silent and "turn the other cheek". But fight we must, as wimpy Christians will not survive spiritual warfare.
--- Remember: You don't stop laughing because you grow old...you grow old because you stop laughing. 🙂
I agree with cat re the political problems with the article. The author attacked people rather than simply attacking principles or behaviours. The author attacked rather than simply stating and defending his position. The author demonstrated intolerance in the name of tolerance.
It came frighteningly close to those nasty emails that go around suggesting that immigrants should conform or go "home" because we are a Christian society. There's nothing Christian about that. The article is not the same, but it's on that slippery slope.
It saddens me when people use our Lord to further their own political beliefs or agendas.
It came frighteningly close to those nasty emails that go around suggesting that immigrants should conform or go "home" because we are a Christian society. There's nothing Christian about that. The article is not the same, but it's on that slippery slope.
It saddens me when people use our Lord to further their own political beliefs or agendas.
So Laurie, you don't think Christians should have left, right, Liberal, Conservbative, or other political leanings? Or maybe you think Christians should stay out of politics altogether? Frankly, I just don't understand your stance other than to be intolerant of the author's.
--- Remember: You don't stop laughing because you grow old...you grow old because you stop laughing. 🙂
--- Remember: You don't stop laughing because you grow old...you grow old because you stop laughing. 🙂
Christians have stood against slavery, discrimination, war, poverty, homelessness, hunger, unemployment, regressive taxation, and on, and on, and on, often well before the secular world cared about the issues.
The author of this article is not fighting any of these things.
Should a store clerk be able to say Merry Christmas? YES! So, let her take up that fight and let's support her in that. But let's do it properly.
Let us reason together rather than go on a general attack. Let's behave in a way that we don't cause our brothers and sisters to stumble.
Christ is not wimpy. He is wise. Let us look for wise.
Spiritual warfare is fought in the spiritual realm and reflected in the natural. If you want to engage in spiritual warfare, then travail and intense intercessory prayer is the way to go, IMO
The author of this article is not fighting any of these things.
Should a store clerk be able to say Merry Christmas? YES! So, let her take up that fight and let's support her in that. But let's do it properly.
Let us reason together rather than go on a general attack. Let's behave in a way that we don't cause our brothers and sisters to stumble.
Christ is not wimpy. He is wise. Let us look for wise.
Spiritual warfare is fought in the spiritual realm and reflected in the natural. If you want to engage in spiritual warfare, then travail and intense intercessory prayer is the way to go, IMO
So Laurie, you don't think Christians should have left, right, Liberal, Conservbative, or other political leanings? Or maybe you think Christians should stay out of politics altogether?
A Christian can have whatever political leaning he or she chooses. That's not the point.
Julie - you know me by now, don't you?
A Christian can have whatever political leaning he or she chooses. That's not the point.
Julie - you know me by now, don't you?
No the author is not fighting against those things, but that is not the point. The point is, he stands among those who have mixed politics with Christianity in fighting injustice in the secular world.
It's fine and good for those who have the gift for intercessory prayer to use their gifts accordingly. But this is not the only gift worthy of proclaiming the word of God within the public forum. There exists those whose gifts originate from life experience and/or education within the political arena, and they use their gifts accordingly and still within the perfect will of God. To state otherwise is akin to saying Christians who take a stand (be it a political stand, a religious stand, or a combination of the two) against the secular world's hostility against Christianity are ungodly. I chose not to make that judgement against so great a cloud of witnesses, yet welcome their experience, education, and commmittment to the cause of fighting injustice.
--- Remember: You don't stop laughing because you grow old...you grow old because you stop laughing. 🙂
It's fine and good for those who have the gift for intercessory prayer to use their gifts accordingly. But this is not the only gift worthy of proclaiming the word of God within the public forum. There exists those whose gifts originate from life experience and/or education within the political arena, and they use their gifts accordingly and still within the perfect will of God. To state otherwise is akin to saying Christians who take a stand (be it a political stand, a religious stand, or a combination of the two) against the secular world's hostility against Christianity are ungodly. I chose not to make that judgement against so great a cloud of witnesses, yet welcome their experience, education, and commmittment to the cause of fighting injustice.
--- Remember: You don't stop laughing because you grow old...you grow old because you stop laughing. 🙂
Christians have stood against slavery, discrimination, war, poverty, homelessness, hunger, unemployment, regressive taxation, and on, and on, and on, often well before the secular world cared about the issues.
Yes and many of those ‘Christians’ were also Liberals and liberal minded people. To give the impression they were not would be incorrect. The most important thing is to have people who stand up for rights and injustices, no matter what their political persuasion. In saying this it also stands to reason that when some Christians are unjust to others then they also must be confronted with their agendas. Not everyone is right because of a religious or political affiliation and once again to assume so would be incorrect.
The secular world does not like to see Christians take a stand and fight the hosility against their faith. In fact, the secular world banks on it, thinking we wil remain silent and "turn the other cheek". But fight we must, as wimpy Christians will not survive spiritual warfare.
Very noble and religiously patriotic statement but in some respects incorrect. When ‘Christians’ stand up and fight for something that is unjust, unequal, or a detriment to a secular society in which we all live then they must realize that as no one has the right to change Christian religious beliefs it also stands to reason that Christians (or other religions) have no right to interfere in a secular country, or it’s government or laws. Separation of Church and State is not just a US concept. I find the ‘hostility’ as you put it, that often rises against Christianity is when Christianity, or some of it’s followers wish to inflict their beliefs on others either personally, or through the government of a country. For instance when someone makes a post in oh say a chat room which condemns the beliefs of others and promotes hate and even persecution and death to these people then certainly people will stand up and fight against that type of hate mongering even when wrapped in a halo of some ancient and highly debatable scripture. Thankfully that’s why we have human rights and a secular country to protect people even from ‘accepted’ persecution and hate. Life is real simple…..9 times out of 10….leave others alone and they will leave you alone. Last Saturday a man stopped me in the street and gave me and my wife a pamphlet (he was carrying maybe a hundred more). He was from the Bethel Baptist Church. I turned and gave it back to him. Not good enough. He followed me down the street and shoved it in my pocket. I took it out and ripped it up and asked him if he’d like the pieces in his hand or with a little ketchup to make it more palatable. To me he was no different than someone following me down the street trying to bum a quarter. Leave me alone, I don’t want your intrusion into my life, or my secular country and when I’m polite and say no thanks…….leave it at that. Live your life and your religion for yourself. Why isn’t that good enough for some people? Those who try and force their beliefs on me……I’ll push back 100 times harder. Those who want and are desperate for a religious based country like Saudi Arabia…..go make one and more power to you. Canada is already taken.
Oh and he took the torn pieces without ketchup, but shouted that I was a sinner and I would burn for eternity. I’m not concerned….his god isn’t mine…..thankfully.
Yes and many of those ‘Christians’ were also Liberals and liberal minded people. To give the impression they were not would be incorrect. The most important thing is to have people who stand up for rights and injustices, no matter what their political persuasion. In saying this it also stands to reason that when some Christians are unjust to others then they also must be confronted with their agendas. Not everyone is right because of a religious or political affiliation and once again to assume so would be incorrect.
The secular world does not like to see Christians take a stand and fight the hosility against their faith. In fact, the secular world banks on it, thinking we wil remain silent and "turn the other cheek". But fight we must, as wimpy Christians will not survive spiritual warfare.
Very noble and religiously patriotic statement but in some respects incorrect. When ‘Christians’ stand up and fight for something that is unjust, unequal, or a detriment to a secular society in which we all live then they must realize that as no one has the right to change Christian religious beliefs it also stands to reason that Christians (or other religions) have no right to interfere in a secular country, or it’s government or laws. Separation of Church and State is not just a US concept. I find the ‘hostility’ as you put it, that often rises against Christianity is when Christianity, or some of it’s followers wish to inflict their beliefs on others either personally, or through the government of a country. For instance when someone makes a post in oh say a chat room which condemns the beliefs of others and promotes hate and even persecution and death to these people then certainly people will stand up and fight against that type of hate mongering even when wrapped in a halo of some ancient and highly debatable scripture. Thankfully that’s why we have human rights and a secular country to protect people even from ‘accepted’ persecution and hate. Life is real simple…..9 times out of 10….leave others alone and they will leave you alone. Last Saturday a man stopped me in the street and gave me and my wife a pamphlet (he was carrying maybe a hundred more). He was from the Bethel Baptist Church. I turned and gave it back to him. Not good enough. He followed me down the street and shoved it in my pocket. I took it out and ripped it up and asked him if he’d like the pieces in his hand or with a little ketchup to make it more palatable. To me he was no different than someone following me down the street trying to bum a quarter. Leave me alone, I don’t want your intrusion into my life, or my secular country and when I’m polite and say no thanks…….leave it at that. Live your life and your religion for yourself. Why isn’t that good enough for some people? Those who try and force their beliefs on me……I’ll push back 100 times harder. Those who want and are desperate for a religious based country like Saudi Arabia…..go make one and more power to you. Canada is already taken.
Oh and he took the torn pieces without ketchup, but shouted that I was a sinner and I would burn for eternity. I’m not concerned….his god isn’t mine…..thankfully.
Post 402: My view is stick to the subject matter and leave the politics out of it. That can be easily done if people really want to.
Post 411: Separation of Church and State is not just a US concept.
Not so easily done, is it?
--- Remember: You don't stop laughing because you grow old...you grow old because you stop laughing. 🙂
Post 411: Separation of Church and State is not just a US concept.
Not so easily done, is it?
--- Remember: You don't stop laughing because you grow old...you grow old because you stop laughing. 🙂
fighting injustice
Fighting injustice is Biblical and we should do that. The Bible is full of that.
But this is not the only gift worthy of proclaiming the word of God within the public forum.
Prayer - whether it's a gift or not - is available to every Christian. You spoke of spiritual warfare. Spiritual warfare is fought in the spiritual realm and reflected in the natural.
All gifts of God are worthy. Every single person within the Body of Christ is just as important as any other person to the Body of Christ.
"proclaiming the word of God in a public forum" I have no problem with proclaiming the word of God in a public forum. I don't see any words of God in that article. I see some principles I agree with and some that I disagree with. I see no words of God.
There exists those whose gifts originate from life experience and/or education within the political arena, and they use their gifts accordingly and still within the perfect will of God.
I can agree with that statement. I could also agree that people can use gifts from God and not be within His perfect will. Please note that, by making the foregoing statement, I'm not suggesting that the author's writing of that article is or is not the perfect will of God. We do not know that.
I chose not to make that judgement against so great a cloud of witnesses, yet welcome their experience, education, and commmittment to the cause of fighting injustice.
I make no judgement against "so great a cloud of witnesses". I did make a judgement about the tone and method of that particular article, though.
"welcome their experience" Yes. We welcome the experience of others so that we may learn. We welcome the good and the bad. We welcome what we like to hear and what we don't like to hear.
education - is good. Analysis, critical thinking and discernment must be a part of the process of education.
"the cause of fighting injustice" Hey - my whole life is about that. I have suffered terribly for it, too. But it's so worth it.
Christians who take a stand (be it a political stand, a religious stand, or a combination of the two) against the secular world's hostility against Christianity
I completely agree that Christians and even non-Christians should take such a stand. My point is that there are many ways to take a stand. We do not have to lower ourselves to the lowest common denominator of our enemies in order to fight them. When we are hostile in response to hostility - what does that get us? When we lash out indiscriminately, not only do we waste our energy and hurt people whom we meant no harm, we earn the hostility of both our enemy and those witnessing the behaviour - not to mention the possibility of someone who is sitting on the fence deciding whether or not to embrace Christ getting shoved away from Him because of our example. I think the Enemy would be quite pleased with that.
Fighting injustice is Biblical and we should do that. The Bible is full of that.
But this is not the only gift worthy of proclaiming the word of God within the public forum.
Prayer - whether it's a gift or not - is available to every Christian. You spoke of spiritual warfare. Spiritual warfare is fought in the spiritual realm and reflected in the natural.
All gifts of God are worthy. Every single person within the Body of Christ is just as important as any other person to the Body of Christ.
"proclaiming the word of God in a public forum" I have no problem with proclaiming the word of God in a public forum. I don't see any words of God in that article. I see some principles I agree with and some that I disagree with. I see no words of God.
There exists those whose gifts originate from life experience and/or education within the political arena, and they use their gifts accordingly and still within the perfect will of God.
I can agree with that statement. I could also agree that people can use gifts from God and not be within His perfect will. Please note that, by making the foregoing statement, I'm not suggesting that the author's writing of that article is or is not the perfect will of God. We do not know that.
I chose not to make that judgement against so great a cloud of witnesses, yet welcome their experience, education, and commmittment to the cause of fighting injustice.
I make no judgement against "so great a cloud of witnesses". I did make a judgement about the tone and method of that particular article, though.
"welcome their experience" Yes. We welcome the experience of others so that we may learn. We welcome the good and the bad. We welcome what we like to hear and what we don't like to hear.
education - is good. Analysis, critical thinking and discernment must be a part of the process of education.
"the cause of fighting injustice" Hey - my whole life is about that. I have suffered terribly for it, too. But it's so worth it.
Christians who take a stand (be it a political stand, a religious stand, or a combination of the two) against the secular world's hostility against Christianity
I completely agree that Christians and even non-Christians should take such a stand. My point is that there are many ways to take a stand. We do not have to lower ourselves to the lowest common denominator of our enemies in order to fight them. When we are hostile in response to hostility - what does that get us? When we lash out indiscriminately, not only do we waste our energy and hurt people whom we meant no harm, we earn the hostility of both our enemy and those witnessing the behaviour - not to mention the possibility of someone who is sitting on the fence deciding whether or not to embrace Christ getting shoved away from Him because of our example. I think the Enemy would be quite pleased with that.
Not so easily done, is it?
It's easily done if people keep their religious beliefs to themselves. If a religion is a belief or a faith that requires inflicting itself on others then it has no place in society as it becomes a source of ‘control’ over the whole of a society of which many do not believe in that religion. Faith is a belief that people should live for themselves and within themselves only. A dog can live amongst cats and live happily, but when a dog tells the cats they must learn to bark as they do, then they become controlling and that leads to fascism and the dream of some for religious totalitarianism. These attempts to change other individuals and change the laws of a secular society is what brings the anger. For some I think the attempts to force themselves on others through religion is no more, or no less, than a form of excitement in their bored lives and fills a void of power they wish they had.
It's easily done if people keep their religious beliefs to themselves. If a religion is a belief or a faith that requires inflicting itself on others then it has no place in society as it becomes a source of ‘control’ over the whole of a society of which many do not believe in that religion. Faith is a belief that people should live for themselves and within themselves only. A dog can live amongst cats and live happily, but when a dog tells the cats they must learn to bark as they do, then they become controlling and that leads to fascism and the dream of some for religious totalitarianism. These attempts to change other individuals and change the laws of a secular society is what brings the anger. For some I think the attempts to force themselves on others through religion is no more, or no less, than a form of excitement in their bored lives and fills a void of power they wish they had.
As a Christian it is sad to witness debates on whether or not city hall will allow a nativity scene to be put up on city hall lawns the next Christmas.
I hear ya'. Why can't we do that and let others of other faiths put up their displays, too?
btw - did you know that Jesus birth was actually in the summer and that Christmas is actually a pagan celebration? Easter is also a pagan celebration.
I hear ya'. Why can't we do that and let others of other faiths put up their displays, too?
btw - did you know that Jesus birth was actually in the summer and that Christmas is actually a pagan celebration? Easter is also a pagan celebration.
Christmas is named after this person called Christ. Simple, done deal, leave it alone. It's one day and harms no one....and in some parts of history has done a lot of good. If he is the son of god or not, doesn't matter...just enjoy it. Those who don't believe in the religious concept, if it's THAT important to you, then don't adhere to it. Get a case of beer, watch a movie.
I don't think that celebrating the rising of our Lord is a pagan holiday
No - celebrating the rising of our Lord is not a pagan holiday. The date on which is celebrated is a pagan holiday.
It was my understanding (and I could be totally wrong) that it was the Christians who "took over" those dates.
Now you've got me questioning whether or not my understanding is accurate. I'm going to go look it up.
No - celebrating the rising of our Lord is not a pagan holiday. The date on which is celebrated is a pagan holiday.
It was my understanding (and I could be totally wrong) that it was the Christians who "took over" those dates.
Now you've got me questioning whether or not my understanding is accurate. I'm going to go look it up.
The following is for the sake of those who are interested and is not intended to suggest anything negative about Christians celebrating Christ. Anyone not interested can just skip it.
The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible says:
Gradually a number of prevailing practices of the nations into which Christianity came were assimilated and were combined with the religious ceremonies surrounding Christmas. The assimilation of such practices generally represented efforts by Christians to transform or absorb otherwise pagan practices.
The Feast of Saturnalia in early Rome, for example, was celebrated for 7 days from the 17th to the 24th of December and was marked by a spirit of merriment, gift giving to children and other forms of entertainment. Gradually, early Christians replaced the pagan feast with the celebration of Christmas; but many of the traditions of this observance were assimilated and remain to this day a part of the observance of Christmas. Other nations, the Scandinavians, Germans, French, English and others, have left their mark . . . as well (pp. 804, 805).
Concerning these ancient elements, The Christian Encyclopedia says:
Various symbolic elements of the pagan celebration, such as the lighting of candles, evergreen decorations, and the giving of gifts, were adapted to Christian signification. Later as Christianity spread into northern Europe, the Celtic, Teutonic, and Slavic winter festivals contributed holly, mistletoe, the Christmas tree, bonfires, and similar items.
Unger's Bible Dictionary adds:
The giving of presents was a Roman custom; while the yule tree and yule log are remnants of old Teutonic nature worship. Gradually the festival sank into mere revelry . . . . The custom was forbidden by an act of parliament in 1555; And the reformation brought in a refinement in the celebration of Christmas by emphasizing it Christian elements.
But what about passages like Jeremiah 10? Some believe this condemns the celebration of Christmas and especially the use of the Christmas tree. Is Jeremiah telling us to avoid the customs of the nations? No. Jeremiah 10 is a denunciation of the making and worship of idols and not the decoration of evergreen trees in the home.
This passage is not a categorical denial of all the customs of the nations. It is only a command to avoid those customs that are contrary to the revelation of God to Israel. There were many customs that Israel and the nations had in common that were not wrong.
This passage in Jeremiah and others like it in Isaiah had to do with idolatry. First, Jeremiah warns against astrological worship--the worship of the sun, moon, and the stars. Second, he warns against going into the forest to cut down trees to be carved into an idol in some form whether human or animal, and then worshipped and prayed to for guidance, for protection, and blessing (cf. Isa. 44:14-17).
Some have tried to tie the reference to the green tree in Jeremiah 3:6, 13 to the reference in 10:3f to further justify condemnation of the Christmas tree, but this refers to the idolatrous groves of trees used as a place for idol worship and revelry.
The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible says:
Gradually a number of prevailing practices of the nations into which Christianity came were assimilated and were combined with the religious ceremonies surrounding Christmas. The assimilation of such practices generally represented efforts by Christians to transform or absorb otherwise pagan practices.
The Feast of Saturnalia in early Rome, for example, was celebrated for 7 days from the 17th to the 24th of December and was marked by a spirit of merriment, gift giving to children and other forms of entertainment. Gradually, early Christians replaced the pagan feast with the celebration of Christmas; but many of the traditions of this observance were assimilated and remain to this day a part of the observance of Christmas. Other nations, the Scandinavians, Germans, French, English and others, have left their mark . . . as well (pp. 804, 805).
Concerning these ancient elements, The Christian Encyclopedia says:
Various symbolic elements of the pagan celebration, such as the lighting of candles, evergreen decorations, and the giving of gifts, were adapted to Christian signification. Later as Christianity spread into northern Europe, the Celtic, Teutonic, and Slavic winter festivals contributed holly, mistletoe, the Christmas tree, bonfires, and similar items.
Unger's Bible Dictionary adds:
The giving of presents was a Roman custom; while the yule tree and yule log are remnants of old Teutonic nature worship. Gradually the festival sank into mere revelry . . . . The custom was forbidden by an act of parliament in 1555; And the reformation brought in a refinement in the celebration of Christmas by emphasizing it Christian elements.
But what about passages like Jeremiah 10? Some believe this condemns the celebration of Christmas and especially the use of the Christmas tree. Is Jeremiah telling us to avoid the customs of the nations? No. Jeremiah 10 is a denunciation of the making and worship of idols and not the decoration of evergreen trees in the home.
This passage is not a categorical denial of all the customs of the nations. It is only a command to avoid those customs that are contrary to the revelation of God to Israel. There were many customs that Israel and the nations had in common that were not wrong.
This passage in Jeremiah and others like it in Isaiah had to do with idolatry. First, Jeremiah warns against astrological worship--the worship of the sun, moon, and the stars. Second, he warns against going into the forest to cut down trees to be carved into an idol in some form whether human or animal, and then worshipped and prayed to for guidance, for protection, and blessing (cf. Isa. 44:14-17).
Some have tried to tie the reference to the green tree in Jeremiah 3:6, 13 to the reference in 10:3f to further justify condemnation of the Christmas tree, but this refers to the idolatrous groves of trees used as a place for idol worship and revelry.
Bob's being compared to NEWMAN!!!!
Now that's a really low blow!
Well better than Kramer I suppose.
Now that's a really low blow!
Well better than Kramer I suppose.
