The Teachers' ….from their side of the fence

[prior-of-verity*shake-hands-with-your-devil]

Always good to hear the ‘other side’ of the story and hear information and facts that the government and the media so conveniently keep from the public.

It’s about an hour long so if you are so inclined to get a more balanced perspective here it is……….

http://ww3.tvo.org/video/187731/teachers-agenda

[stevephinn2012]

I would like to see anywhere that the union said they would reduce sick days. They did agree to a wage freeze but that was it. IF they were ready to agree to everything the contract would have been done much like the Catholic teachers contract which was negotiated prior to the implimintaion of bill 151 .

That is not negotiating …..that is undemocratic tyranny. There are many other examples but that’s the game….do not address the facts even if laid out before them….just change the subject.

and teachers "negotiated" in the past? their contract is up in the summer and they always waited until after school started and then the "negotiations" started with give us this or we take away extra curricular sports and then the treaten walk out. I have never actually seen a "negotiation" it been them saying this is what we want or we walk.

Also I have yet to hear from 1 person (teacher-union rep-by-stander) why it is that the catholic boards were able to negotiate a contract but the public boards were not?

oh and they were offered negotiations (I know the teachers on your tape heard it from the union that they were not) and told that negotiations end on Dec 31st-contract ended in August that gave them 4 months AFTER the contract ended to negotiate.

My wifes contract is up NEXT january and they have already started negotiations!

negotiations is a world of give and take--not we WANT or else.

[almond_t]

Sitting in the airport, putting in time.

'I seen' -> someone too lazy to preceed it with the prerequisite 'have' or 'has', 

or simply change it to 'I saw' if 'have seen' is too difficult.

Elementary school.  Early grade.

(Just because it's become part of the topic at hand!!)

[almond_t]

Fitting comment to make in a thread about teachers, anyway!

[nuvistors]

and teachers "negotiated" in the past? their contract is up in the summer and they always waited until after school started and then the "negotiations" started with give us this or we take away extra curricular sports and then the treaten walk out. I have never actually seen a "negotiation" it been them saying this is what we want or we walk.

The teachers would not want to waste their two month vacation with things like negotiating.   After all they caould not hold the children over the fire during the teachers vacarion.

[puckstopshere]

It must be nice to have all the answers.

Don't recall saying that.

Just expressing my opinions.

Reality is a wonderful place.

You should try visiting it sometime.

[puckstopshere]

people say the teachers want a raise, when the truth is they don’t and they agreed to that.

Didn't I say that in my post? 

There is some question about the veracity of that though.

Initially, a number of boards signed agreements with their teachers - with a two year wage freeze.

The government set a deadline for all agreements to be signed - or legislation would be passed. 

It was at that point, that agreements stopped being signed.  We can assume that the teachers, at that point, were still willing to accept a wage freeze.  But we don't know that for a fact. 

But heaven forbid someone comes along with different points of view and he or she might as well paint crosshairs on their back.

Checking my back right now, as I know you are armed - not with the facts, but with real guns.

You are also delusional.  Most of what your message contained, I said in my post.  It seems that you are entitled to your opinion, but the rest of us are denied free speech.  I did not attack the teachers.  I am entitled to an opinion.  You seem to feel that the rest of us know nothing and you have to educate us.  You should take off that mask and have a long hard look in the mirror.  You are guilty of all the things you accuse others of.  Narcissistic, paranoid and delusional - a shrinks dream.

[puckstopshere]

At this point some people will fight against this and others …..well they just roll over and say “that’s the way things are and you just have to accept it”. Now one has to decide which side of the fence they are on…..those who fight against tyranny and injustice …..or the person who allows themselves to be kicked whenever their master feels like it.

I have done more than my share of fighting.  It is now the time for those who have the most to lose to step up to the plate.  I am aware of the role of the rich in this world.  I am aware of the role of the politicians - one for all and all for me.  Nothing I said is incorrect.  We will survive and prosper - as soon as we quit selling off our resources and convert those resources to goods that we can manufacture and sell.  Government is too big.  Too many people work in non-productive jobs.  It will be a painful process to reduce this reliance on government to be the largest employer. 

And that still leaves the problem.  Canadian wages are not competetive in the world market place.

What is your solution?????  You are good at picking apart what I say.  Let's hear your plan for Canada's future.

[puckstopshere]

I would like to see anywhere that the union said they would reduce sick days.

In actual fact, the reduction in sick pay was agreed to by the union - based on the contracts that were signed with various boards - prior to the legislation.

their contract is up in the summer and they always waited until after school started and then the "negotiations" started

It is as much the responsibility of the various boards as it is the unions.  In the past, boards have taken a wait and see attitude.  Let's wait and see what other boards do.  Let's wait and see what the government wants to do.  If the board started negotiations six months ahead of the actual contract expiration, they might avoid this scenario. 

As we have seen at the Cami plant in Ingersoll, management has asked to open negotiations early.  They want a long term contract with known costs so that they can decide whether to put millions into a plant expansion.  The union members (those that I have spoken to) and the union executive (as reported in the media) recognize that this re-negotiation will probably result in wage reductions, somewhat offset by profit sharing benefits.  They seem to be prepared to accept this in return for a long term committment from GM to expand the plant and to keep the plant going for many years (job security). 

Also I have yet to hear from 1 person (teacher-union rep-by-stander) why it is that the catholic boards were able to negotiate a contract but the public boards were not?

They didn't.  The Liberals put out a contract and said that this was the basis on which all boards will "negotiate".  There really was no negotiation.  It was a take it or leave it deal.  They took it. 

[puckstopshere]

'I seen' -> someone too lazy to preceed it with the prerequisite 'have' or 'has', or simply change it to 'I saw' if 'have seen' is too difficult.

As he has said in the past, he occasionally lapses into Newfie-speak.  If you know any Newfies, you will know that they have theri own language(s).  It is not a grammatical error as such - just heritage.

We all have our little quirks.  I am mildly dyslexic and reverse letters - I sometimes recognize it.  But usually, if I proof read it - it looks right to me.  Also, I failed typing in school.  Two guys and 43 girls in the class - who could concentrate on those little keys.  I was too busy trying to keep my hormones in check. 

There are others in here who have English as their second language.  I would not criticize them for messing up oru complicated language. 

[prior-of-verity*shake-hands-with-your-devil]

A few weeks ago I was talking to a friend and we got talking about health. He asked me what I would do if I found out I had a deadly disease with only a short time left in life.

[prior-of-verity*shake-hands-with-your-devil]

That being said, union membership does not give you a right to anything - except maybe to pay union dues.

I was not talking about a union right….I was talking about the right of the individuals to collective bargaining. I and others look at it as a human right to sit down with your employer and discuss and negotiate the future. When an employer, whoever it may be, decides ‘this is what you get deal with it’, that’s an authoritarian tyrannical attitude. Basically a bully in a good suit…..a bully who knows they have the workers stuck between a rock and a hard spot. Will the workers quit and risk losing their homes and falling into debt and many other things associated with the loss of a job?……..most likely No! The government knows this and knows if the teachers go on strike.....they simply pull out legislation to force them back. It's basically the same thing that was done in the past on occasions to the Native people. They would not give up land.....so the government just made a law that they had to.

Also they are trained teachers with experience and degrees in a specific line of work that for the most part in Canada requires them to be lorded over by some government somewhere. They are in the same spot as a worker in China who keeps their 25 dollar a week job and the intimidation that goes with it because they know if they quit……their family will have no money coming in.

This is increasingly the way Canada, N. America and much of the world is going…..having workers by the throat…..and it’s only going to get worse.

It would be good in my estimation to see all  the teachers just ……..quit. You can’t fine someone for quitting. It would shut down the whole education system, but maybe that’s what is needed. Could they replace all the teachers? Not a prayer, not even close.

It is nice to say that we need to be strong and support the unions in their fight. This "fight" is pretty much toothless.

Toothless?…..I don’t know. It’s up to the people, the consumers, to bring back good jobs and take the power away from greedy Corporations and governments. It starts…..small and grows. I do not buy anything where I know any part of it is made in Mexico, China, or some other off shore country. Some items I know there must be parts in them from other countries because nearly every manufacturer turns to slave labour…..but I try my best.  I have been in a Wal-Mart once, for about 5 min, and walked out never to return.  If everyone did that …..be more concerned about their own people and less concerned about themselves...... then companies would have to sit up and take notice or fold up like a paper bag. Shareholders would be outraged and force the companies to bring jobs back to N. America. Other manufacturers and retail stores would see the tsunami coming and they would change before it cost them everything. The consumer, the people, would have their power back again. This has to be a revolt……with your pocketbook.

We cannot legislate a cocoon around this country and keep the world away from us.

We can make change so we are no longer a consumer based society but a manufacturing society again.

IF they were ready to agree to everything the contract would have been done much like the Catholic teachers contract which was negotiated prior to the implimintaion of bill 151 .

They refused to allow their collective bargaining rights as workers to be taken away.

Also I have yet to hear from 1 person (teacher-union rep-by-stander) why it is that the catholic boards were able to negotiate a contract but the public boards were not?

Because the Catholic school board negotiated and did not come in with a ‘take it or leave it attitude’. See how well things work out when you use honey instead of a baseball bat.

The teachers would not want to waste their two month vacation with things like negotiating. After all they caould not hold the children over the fire during the teachers vacarion.

Where do you get this …..stuff? The teachers union was negotiating a year before and it has nothing to do with teacher’s ‘vacations’ as you put it. You want to take the summer away from students and parents?….you go tell them that!

It must be nice to have all the answers.  Don't recall saying that.

You said that in post 55.

At least I’m in a reality that I can remember what I said.

The government set a deadline for all agreements to be signed - or legislation would be passed.

It was at that point, that agreements stopped being signed.

Yes…..because it was the government attitude of ‘our way or no way’.

Thanks for the other comments in post 65. They’ll come in handy.

It is now the time for those who have the most to lose to step up to the plate.

So you have given up. I remember my grandmother, 85 years old and still wouldn’t let anyone walk on her or her rights or the rights of others. She wasn't a 'me' person....she was a 'we' person.

Let's hear your plan for Canada's future.

So many things, so many. Some I have expressed in here many times in the past. But they all boil down to two basic things…..change and if change will not come…..revolt. But many Canadians.....too spoiled....too lazy.....too complacent. That will change in time.

[prior-of-verity*shake-hands-with-your-devil]

that mask

So you're what?.....a cat?

[pierrelebel]

Is the problem with the teachers or their union leadership?

"Toronto teachers’ union plays political games, promoting protests while donating to four Liberal leadership campaigns"

"The union gave $10,000 each to the campaigns of Premier-designate Kathleen Wynne and former minister Eric Hoskins . It directed $5,000 each to the campaigns of Gerard Kennedy and Glen Murray"

"There’s nothing illegal about the donations, perhaps even nothing improper. But it’s a cynical approach — especially when the same union demanded that teachers withdraw their involvement in students’ sports, chess clubs and theatre productions because of anger at the Liberals’ approach to contract talks."

Toronto Star editorial today:

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/2013/02/04/toronto_teachers_union_plays_cynical_game_with_... 

[nuvistors]

Prior wrote:   Basically a bully in a good suit…..a bully who knows they have the workers stuck between a rock and a hard spot.

That descibes the union exactly

A bunch of thugs that  say they will fine any teacher $500.00 per day for hekping with exte-curicular activities,

The union is mob mentality !

666

[puckstopshere]

 I and others look at it as a human right to sit down with your employer and discuss and negotiate the future.

Having a union in a work place effectively removes this right from the individual.  In fact, it is seen (by the union) as an attack on the union for an employee to sit down with management to discuss anything - without a shop steward present.

It would be good in my estimation to see all the teachers just ……..quit.

That would probably be a good move.  However, it is much too drastic a move for most individuals.  No matter what your feelings or you dislike for the "boss", quitting is something that goes against our human need for security.  Talk to all the teachers you have come to know over the past 25 years or whatever it is - most support the union - but most don't feel strongly enough to quit - even if they knew that their employer would probably have to hire them back.  It would mean a loss of security and starting over at the bottom of the wage grid. 

It seems that you don't really read my posts.  Much of what you say in Post 70, I have said in my posts. 

It must be nice to have all the answers. Don't recall saying that. 

You said that in post 55.

This is what I said in Post 55:

I have often wondered that. It must be nice to have all the answers. I was answering Pierre's post and I was referring to you.

[puckstopshere]

But they all boil down to two basic things…..change and if change will not come…..revolt. But many Canadians.....too spoiled....too lazy.....too complacent. That will change in time

I am afraid it will not change with your average Canadian.

It may change when the immigrant population increases to a level where they are in the majority.  Of course I am referring to the current immigrants, as all non-native Canadians are immigrants or their ancestors were.  Even the natives are immigrants - from the Northern part of Russia.

Canadians have long since forgotten what their ancestors went through to get to this country.  The current group of immigants are from countries where the struggles for freedom are fresh in the minds of most.  It is these new immigrants that will eventually change the face of our nation. 

But many Canadians.....too spoiled....too lazy.....too complacent.

Not really.  Just used to a way of life that they have had all their lives.  Now that times are changing, they have difficulty adapting. 

The teachers would not want to waste their two month vacation with things like negotiating. After all they caould not hold the children over the fire during the teachers vacarion.

I didn't say that.  Steve (your friend that you call Mikey) said that.  I was telling him that it was not correct. 

[puckstopshere]

So you're what?.....a cat?

Yup, kittens are cute - me, not so much.

Besides, kittens make me smile. 

All people should be like kittens.

They enjoy everything in life and know when they need a nap to recharge the batteries..   

You should take off that mask and have a long hard look in the mirror.

You can hide from whoever you want.  IMO, I think you are hiding from yourself.  It is easy to focus all your insecurity outward.  It is difficult to look inside yourself and see what truly motivates you.  You are so busy criticizing others, you have forgotten that you are not as perfect as you would have us (and yourself) believe. 

[prior-of-verity*shake-hands-with-your-devil]

A bunch of thugs that say they will fine any teacher $500.00 per day for hekping with exte-curicular activities,

Nearly everyone is like that because of power or because they need solidarity for a larger cause and if a person at one time joined the ‘group’ then they expect you to follow the group. In business if you don’t follow what your ‘superiors’ tell you to do you end up in the unemployment line. In the military if you disobey orders you can end up in the brig and in some countries on the business end of a gun.

Having a union in a work place effectively removes this right from the individual. In fact, it is seen (by the union) as an attack on the union for an employee to sit down with management to discuss anything - without a shop steward present.

The union speaks for the people and when a person joins a union they know that’s how it works. It also works the same in many other areas……In the military a private doesn’t go into negotiations with the enemy…..in business an ordinary worker doesn’t negotiate business with another company. Why? Well think about it.

However, it is much too drastic a move for most individuals…..etc

Yes I know that and I had mentioned it previously. But it would be an interesting strategic move like an atomic bomb. Who do you think would fold first? I think the government and in about 2 weeks tops….because of all the parents on their backs. I reverses the power. As it is now the parents wanted the government with the power to use that power over the teachers. If all teachers quit….then the power structure changes. No longer has the government the power….now the parents have the power and the only people they can use that power on is the government.

It seems that you don't really read my posts.

I do actually but in the process of talking I let wander concepts that may have been said previously. Everyone does it. Even above where you talked about what a drastic move it would be for the teachers….I said virtually the same things myself previously.

I was answering Pierre's post and I was referring to you.

Yes I know. I don’t understand the necessity to even say that. Everyone has their opinions and people disagree…..that……is life.

Canadians have long since forgotten what their ancestors went through to get to this country.

Please enthral me with what those ancestors had to go through…..I’m very interested.

Just used to a way of life that they have had all their lives. Now that times are changing, they have difficulty adapting.

Well being use to something and expecting it is complacency. Difficult adapting ….true….but government and big business will make sure that the pain is minimal, just a little bit at a time. These people understand the average person. They have professionals working for them who are well versed in human nature. They know how much to push and then pull back and then push again. They know how to lie and manipulate to get the eventual end results that they want. This isn’t just Canada….this includes those with so much power they virtually rule the world. Like a club or a gang they work together for the most part and take care of themselves. The ‘people’ are just the pawns, the workers, the slaves. Many years ago I use to know a ‘very’ rich and influential man. An international man he was also a banker on the highest level. One day we were talking over some very good scotch and he said to me ….”it’s all a game, monopoly money and it’s the game we love the most”. They’re no different than anyone else with a passion for what they do….they just have more power and wealth than the average person. Personally I think they are the real sociopaths of the world.

I didn't say that.

Actually you are incorrect, it was Nu who said that and  I was responding to him. When I do a post it isn’t all replying to you.

Your post 76…. Are you a psychologist?  You don’t know me and you can guess what you wish….still though you are completely wrong.

Me hide? LOL….you have no idea who you are talking to. The problem with the world is there are two realities these days unfortunately….real life and the internet. Real life I have NO problem with, none at all, been doing real for a long time. If you knew half of what I have done your perspective would be much different. The Internet however is a totally different situation as anyone in Internet security can attest to. In real life I can protect my family, friends and business, but on the Internet cowards lurk in the dark. Me, I’m a real life person. There seems to be fewer and fewer of us left.

Insecure? Me? ….. that is laughable. That’s such a wrong diagnosis I wouldn’t even attribute it to Dr. Phil on his best day. Don’t give up your day job.

Oh and I like the new sig. The ‘devil’ (loosely described) is a fallen angel and why did he fall?….because he wasn’t going to be ordered around and bow down to a god with a lousy track record throughout history. The devil was very independent, believed in freedom and hence disliked by religions who have one goal….to control others. Of course they ‘demonized’ him for this the same as they did to anyone who went against their doctrines and control. Freedom….LOL No such thing in most religions but one. The devil also is the one who one day, eventually, he gets to deal with those who have harmed others….it’s a fire and brimstone thing. All in all…..not a bad guy. Interestingly I have a pair of fallen angel wings on my leather. What do you think….maybe it was a ''''''sign'''''''? LOL 

[prior-of-verity*shake-hands-with-your-devil]

Hummmmmmmmmmmmmm seems to be another glitch in the system. All the italics (meaning what was previously said) don't seem to be working today. Sorry about that....I guess you will have to read between the lines and figure it out yourself.