05-06-2017 01:50 PM
Femme, I know I’m not going to change your mind about FB and trust me, I have no intention of trying to do that, but since you asked I’ll explain the way I see this and other FB issues.
Experienced and serious buyers have learned never to leave NFB because it only comes back to bite them.
Smart buyers don’t leave NFB, and crooks who are good at what they do don’t either.
Buyers who leave NFB were usually in some kind of shouting match with the seller and use NFB to land a final blow and what we see most of the time with NFB is an act of vengeance and the culmination of an exchange of nasty messages between buyer and seller.
If eBay stopped allowing members to view FB left for others we’d
1). See a lot more NFB with honest assessments of the service.
2.) Sales for good sellers would increase for two reasons. First they'd stop banning buyers who leave NFB. It gives some sellers the allusion on control but it's not real. Second, honest FB would steer buyers towards better sellers (like you) because buyers would have the opportunity to see what’s really gong on behind the scenes.
In general, the practice of leaving FB is barbaric. eBay was the first to ritualize Public Shaming with the FB process. I don’t think anyone was prepared for the power of that kind of public shaming, but now that we know it’s high time to put a stop to that abusive practice.
eBay stopped allowing sellers to leave NFB for buyers and it’s high time to stop allowing buyers to leave NFB for sellers, but the next step could be to stop allowing sellers to vet buyers according to FB left of others.
05-06-2017 10:03 PM - edited 05-06-2017 10:05 PM
@mjwl2006 wrote:
Well... I think experienced buyers know that some Negative feedback is justifiable so there's really nothing to worry about as long as one always made sure to leave honest feedback as a buyer. When I did all my buying, the Positive feedback left for others always outweighed the Negatives. I was careful to avoid sellers with a great deal of Negative feedback. I think there are some sellers that might look at a buyer's history of leaving all Positives and feel that makes them easy to push around too.
Well, you almost have me convinced.
I have a situation and the seller really earned NFB. However, not sure I wouldn't be the one most damaged by it.
05-06-2017 10:05 PM
05-06-2017 11:43 PM
eBay should not allow others to view the FB left for Sellers by individual buyers available to others.
I'm baffled by this.
But my bafflement is not a disagreement.
I just don't understand what you were saying.
This part is okay
eBay should not allow others to view the FB left for Sellers by individual buyers
But this confuses me
by individual buyers available to others.
In my opinion, if buyer names were unmasked, sellers could cross check to see if that particular seller was constantly dinging his sellers, or if the neg was a one-time bad transaction.
05-07-2017 12:25 AM
In my opinion, if buyer names were unmasked, sellers could cross check to see if that particular seller was constantly dinging his sellers, or if the neg was a one-time bad transaction.
I was confused by the OP's original statement as well as yours.....
Don't you mean;
In my opinion, if buyer names were unmasked, sellers could cross check to see if that particular buyer was constantly dinging his sellers, or if the neg was a one-time bad transaction.
Is this what you meant?
Correct me if I'm wrong......
05-07-2017 01:07 AM
@sylviebee wrote:
@hlmacdon wrote:Having worked in ecommerce as a buyer .....................
Just curious: You had a job as an online buyer?
Correct, retail prior then ecommerce. Quite a bit different on the ecommerce side as you get dragged into many areas outside of just buying due to the nature of the format.
05-07-2017 01:19 AM
@mjwl2006 wrote:
And the honest China sellers whose stuff has been delayed by Customs inspection... they deserve some sort of support too.
This is getting to be a real problem for international sellers and commercial importers alike. The changes CBSA has made to the level of scrutiny for incoming mail are really throwing a wrench into things. I've had commercial shipments get delayed for much longer periods than usual, whereas for the last several years it was rare for anything to take longer than 24 hours to clear. On the other hand it does make for entertaining conversation with the local carriers about how they are even fearing glitter falling out of birthday cards and the like with all the paranoia around fentanyl.
05-07-2017 06:55 AM
@mjwl2006 wrote:
Can you tell us what the situation was about without revealing too much?
MJ, I could describe dozens of scenarios where sellers have done everything to deserve to NFB, but I'm pretty sure you've has these experiences as well.
For example, I reported about one such incident in the thread: "Cost to return an order and international eBay rules" in post #12.
05-07-2017 07:24 AM - edited 05-07-2017 07:26 AM
@femmefan1946 wrote:eBay should not allow others to view the FB left for Sellers by individual buyers available to others.
I'm baffled by this.
But my bafflement is not a disagreement.
I just don't understand what you were saying.
This part is okay
eBay should not allow others to view the FB left for Sellers by individual buyers
But this confuses me
by individual buyers available to others.
In my opinion, if buyer names were unmasked, sellers could cross check to see if that particular seller was constantly dinging his sellers, or if the neg was a one-time bad transaction.
Ya, I got into a bit of a twist trying to make sure it was clear that I was referring to the FB left by a specific buyer for others.
Also want to add:
My original post about this was in relation to the way eBay is going about reigning difficult sellers in. I posted in a thread addressing "Cost to return an order and international eBay rules." because when eBay ruled that sellers pay return shipping costs that was one important step towards that goal.
My point is that if eBay now eliminates the ability to see buyer’s FB left for others that this would serve to tighten things up even more.
I’m not saying that sellers should or shouldn’t check out buyer’s FB left for others. That’s a personal choice and the urge can be irresistible . I’m saying that doing away with that feature would add another level of safety for buyers because buyers would be more likely to leave honest FB.
Most buyers are unaware that sellers are checking them out this way, but experienced buyers are very much attuned to the fact that they are being judged by the FB left for others.
If you couldn’t do it sales would increase and you’d have one less thing to worry about. As long as that feature is available sellers will continue to burden themselves with it.
If it were gone: Out of sight/out of mind.
05-07-2017 08:42 AM
05-07-2017 12:11 PM - edited 05-07-2017 12:12 PM
If, after refuting my assertion an item was sold with undisclosed damage, the response of the seller was to send me a photo of himself making an obscene gesture, you can bet your bottom dollar that my NEGATIVE feedback for that seller would read something like: 'Undisclosed damage denied, seller replied with obscene gesture/suggestion. No thanks!' and I would not lose a moment of sleep over it.
I'm really not trying to change your mind but I do think the a seller will look at a buyer's history of Feedback Left For Others (FLFO) when trying to decide how to handle a dispute.
If the seller sees only blue skies and all Positives, they may feel they are safe to do as they like without fear of feedback reprisal. If a seller looks and sees only a plague of red dots in that other member's FLFO they will likely call ebay to complain about the buyer but handle them more gingerly lest the plague spreads to them too. If that pressed-upon seller sees a fair mix or reds, greys and greens, they might try a more moderate approach. What constitutes a 'fair' mix to a seller is likely based on their own experience as a buyer.
I can't be bothered to go back and count the greys and reds on my 112+ pages of FLFO but I would venture to say that in all my buying, I've left about a dozen that were not positive and that was always only as a last resort, after ebay was required to step in and the seller had already burned every conceivable bridge with me. Of about 450 (?) items bought here over the last decade maybe three per cent went south? All guesswork on the estimates but educated guesses. I've never left Negative feedback for someone straight out of the gate, and if I was unhappy with a seller tried to work it out however I could until it was clear there was nothing to do but ask ebay itself for help.
But not everyone is reasonable. I draw the line at being sworn at. There is no place for that in a place of business. The guy pumping my gasoline can't swear at me, nor can I swear at him. Just because we don't speak face-to-face here doesn't mean someone can send you a photo of himself flipping you the bird.
Like, really.
Re: Message 27
05-07-2017 01:09 PM
mj, Reading that, it didn't occur to me until just now, ...............
I've been doing this for so long I lost sight of the fact that the type of buying I do is not the same as most eBayers do.
The type of buying I do is VERY hypercompetitive (and a whole lot of fun). I'm already at a very large disadvantage because I'm a Canadian buying mainly from dot com.
I've often been tempted to write a book but I really hate writing. Not my forte.
05-11-2017 09:00 AM
Leaving feedback for sellers should not be optional IMO! I would set it up so that an item from your purchase history cannot be deleted or hidden until feedback is left.
05-11-2017 03:42 PM
Be careful what you wish for. I'm certain that there are buyers who are not totally happy with the transaction but rather than leaving negative feedback, they don't leave any at all. Forcing someone to leave fb is not a good idea imo.
05-11-2017 03:48 PM
Or people who would leave random mashings of the keyboard for feedback text and fill in the DSRs to make a pretty pattern, the same as I did with virtually every standardized test in elementary school. Just to make that obligation to do so disappear.
05-11-2017 06:29 PM
@sylviebee wrote:I’m saying that doing away with that feature would add another level of safety for buyers because buyers would be more likely to leave honest FB.
Or they would leave more NFB just for the fun of it.
05-14-2017 05:38 PM
@sylviebee wrote:My point is that if eBay now eliminates the ability to see buyer’s FB left for others that this would serve to tighten things up even more.
I’m not saying that sellers should or shouldn’t check out buyer’s FB left for others. That’s a personal choice and the urge can be irresistible . I’m saying that doing away with that feature would add another level of safety for buyers because buyers would be more likely to leave honest FB.
Most buyers are unaware that sellers are checking them out this way, but experienced buyers are very much attuned to the fact that they are being judged by the FB left for others.
If you couldn’t do it sales would increase and you’d have one less thing to worry about. As long as that feature is available sellers will continue to burden themselves with it.
I'm having difficulty making sense of much of this. It seems like unnecessarily over-thinking the subject.
For example, how could doing away with sellers' ability to see buyers' FB left for others "tighten things up" or "add another level of safety for buyers because buyers would be more likely to leave honest FB"?
Are you trying to say that you believe buyers would leave more honest FB if they knew no one could see it (except their own seller), or if they knew no other sellers could see it? If the former, there would be little purpose in FB at all, honest or not. If the latter, we'd end up back in the days a decade or so ago when FB on eBay was a free-for-all mud slinging arena. We know how that worked out. I think it's good that buyers may be aware other sellers might see their comments -- that's more apt to keep them honest and reasonable.
"Most buyers are unaware that sellers are checking them out this way, but experienced buyers are very much attuned to the fact that they are being judged by the FB left for others.
If you couldn’t do it sales would increase and you’d have one less thing to worry about. As long as that feature is available sellers will continue to burden themselves with it."
I honestly doubt anyone who is justifiably upset with his or her seller over a bad transaction will be worrying about the opinions of other sellers when leaving negative FB. Conversely, I doubt a truly problematic, raving buyer is going to be stopped by such a concern either. I fail to see how not having these comments visible would have any effect at all on sales, or how being able to see buyers' FB left for others is a burden for sellers. Quite the opposite, I'd think.
As an experienced buyer, I would not hesitate to leave negative FB if a transaction, a product, or a seller's service was truly terrible. It would never hinder me to think that a seller somewhere might target me for it, because it would be a rare incident amongst many, many transactions. The same goes for neutral FB for a lower scale of disappointment. That's not to say I've left much of either in over 15 years, but I think we also have to remember the value that a truthful, honest negative comment can have to other buyers. It may, incidentally, also actually sellers to understand errors and/or change attitudes.
The whole point of FB originally was to give eBay users some means to judge who they would be dealing with. With fewer and fewer buyers leaving FB, the system is less important than it once was, but I'd argue that it's not quite irrelevant. As a buyer about to purchase from a seller I've never previously dealt with, I always take a look at FB left by other buyers, and I hope my own buyers will do the same.
And I think an experienced buyer will easily see when negative comments are unwarranted or unreasonable (both the FB of buyers and -- just as, if not more, significant -- the responses of sellers to negative FB). Frankly I think I can get a pretty good "snapshot" of what sort of treatment I can expect from a seller by perusing FB left by others before making a purchase.
On the other side of the equation, as a seller who uses Best Offer quite frequently, I always check a buyer's history before accepting an offer. It isn't a question of an irresistible urge to snoop, but of trying to make some sort of reasoned judgment from the information that is made available by eBay. I consider it a helpful feature, certainly not a burden. Taking that away entirely would be removing a fairly valuable tool for sellers. I'm often surprised at what kind of overall picture I can glean from scanning through a few pages of not only buyers' FB left for others, but also the type of purchases they make (and the sellers they buy from). I would definitely not want eBay to hide that information.
As someone mentioned above, a lot of people will buy what they want at the right price anyway, regardless of bad FB or reviews. And a lot of sellers will sell to anybody, as long as it's a sale, and deal with the consequences later. That's part of the inherent risk of online selling. On the other hand, if you're a thoughtful seller or buyer, the FB left for others can be quite useful information to others.
In any case, online selling is always going to have a certain percentage of the "engaged" and the "enraged", both on the buying and the selling side. Overall, I think it's a pretty small ratio on both accounts, and that the vast majority of transactions are uneventful and more or less anonymous.
05-14-2017 06:03 PM - edited 05-14-2017 06:05 PM
Rosedee. I didn't actually read your entire post from top to bottom as I've already discussed most of those points above and didn't want to repeat myself. Sorry to throw this right back at you, but you are the one who is overthinking this.
It's very simple.
We all know that some sellers check FB left for others so they can eliminate buyers they consider problematic. Yet those of you who do this adamantly insist that buyers should feel free to leave NFB.
That's quite the contradiction!
As I pointed out above, the type of buying I do is very competitive. I can see that the buyers I compete with never leave NFB and, trust me, the reason for that isn't because they don't have negative experiences. (I read about them all the time.)
We don't leave NFB because we compete with each other and if my competition makes the same offer I made but hasn't left NFB, then her offer will take precedence over mine.
That's why.
I've never understood why others don't seem to get what's so obvious to me until I came to the realization that the type of buying I do is much more competitive that the way most eBayers buy. It's also a lot of fun.
05-14-2017 06:50 PM
@sylviebee wrote:"I think that eBay is doing an excellent job of trying to police bad sellers. When they started requiring that sellers pay return shipping for SNAD items that was a huge step. The rules are in place."
Actually, I think this rule will end up being more of a burden on sellers and an open door for abuse by buyers in any situation where SNAD is difficult to prove. That is particularly so for Canadians selling primarily to the U.S. (or for that matter internationally), where return shipping is both costly and complicated to manage.
"However, I'm puzzled as to why it hasn't had more effect than it has, but to hazard a guess I think that too many buyers suck it up rather than confront shoddy sellers because buyers don't like conflict."
On what basis do you conclude that the policy hasn't had more of an effect? On the assumption that buyers aren't returning items? How do you know this? Surely only eBay would know whether the programme is effective or not and whether buyers are actually making use of it. Why conclude buyers are necessarily confronting "shoddy" sellers? It could just as easily be the reverse, where buyers claim a SNAD that the seller is unable to dispute for one reason or another and the seller ends up being obliged to pay expensive return shipping or face punishment from eBay. I think there are very much two sides to this coin.
"Others here are much better than I am at keeping track of eBay rules etc., but is NFB even a defect any longer?"
Yes, that's correct, negative FB no longer triggers a defect.
"IMO NFB serves no purpose other than to publicly shame the seller at the receiving end, and that's very powerful. With all the issues associated with social media bullying and shaming FB should also be a part of that discussion."
My view is that selling online has its inherent risks and problems, which we all accept when we put our wares out to sell. It's not much different from having a loud, nasty customer confront a salesperson in a B&M store. An unfortunate part of the territory, unpleasant and unwanted, but not illegal or immoral. To be honest, almost all of this sort of behaviour can be managed or avoided entirely by proper actions and attitudes on the part of the seller. Some sales are just better disposed of without drama, even if they involve some loss (of money or of face!).
It must be said that much of the negative FB is probably very well deserved, too, although bad language just makes the author of the comment look bad, not the recipient. It's not just buyers either. Any random glance over FB pages will reveal a lot of scathingly nasty responses by sellers hurled at buyers as well (some of whom may actually have a bona fide issue with the item or the service).
"I've encountered dozens of horrible sellers with 100% PFB so I no longer believe any of it."
Sorry, this doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Are you saying you've actually purchased from dozens of horrible sellers who have 100% positive FB? Unless you make thousands of purchases a year, this ratio is pretty difficult to believe. If you haven't actually purchased, how would you know they're horrible despite the positive FB? What do you mean by "horrible" sellers?
"Also, reading endless testimonials here, on these boards, it's easy to see that NFB is usually the result of buyer and seller disagreements and often not deserved. Sellers who won't back down because they feel they are in the "right" get NFB but that's more about personality issues than it's about the items being sold."
I don't think it's a good idea to judge most of eBay by what is seen on the discussion boards. That's somewhat like judging the health of a community by looking at a hospital emergency room. It's primarily the troubled transactions that come to the boards. I can't recall the last time I saw a seller reporting on a smooth, happy transaction.
However, I agree with you that a fair number of sellers who do come to the boards with issues have difficulty seeing where or how they have either created or escalated the problem themselves.
On the other hand, many (often new sellers) are unwitting victims of buyers who have taken advantage of them or of some loophole in eBay policy (such as claiming a bogus SNAD), and they end up with wholly undeserved negative FB. I can sympathize, especially with low volume sellers, as that ugly red blemish will stick out in their FB history for many months. Which is not to say that their naïveté or lack of preparation and failure to study eBay rules before beginning to sell isn't often the cause of their trouble. Still, I wouldn't call them "bad" sellers.
05-14-2017 07:22 PM
rose-dee, I won't argue or debate with you and reading through and responding to your entire post is more than I want to take on.
I'm sure you have a different opinion, and that's OK............
A lot of the most experienced buyers on eBay do exactly as I do and there are good reasons for that. Sure leaving NFB would provide a fleeting moment of satisfaction, but that's not worth a hoot when it comes back to bite you from behind. It never goes away.
05-14-2017 07:38 PM
@sylviebee wrote:
"We all know that some sellers check FB left for others so they can eliminate buyers they consider problematic. Yet those of you who do this adamantly insist that buyers should feel free to leave NFB.
That's quite the contradiction!"
Not at all. I think you've misunderstood.
Negative FB comments are not, in my view, at all problematic in themselves. An experienced seller can see when buyers have legitimate complaints. I quite often give buyers a complete pass who may have left negative FB for other sellers. It's a matter of tone, content and frequency. I also, by the way, look at those other sellers' histories briefly too -- this can often be very revealing, and completely exonerate the buyer.
On the other hand, if there is a truly troublesome buyer out there making an offer on an expensive item of mine, then yes, I'd rather know his/her history in advance. Not all sales are worth having, especially non-paying sales. They take the item out of circulation until issues are dealt with, which can mean losing a buyer in the meantime who might have paid.
Since we don't have visibility of buyers' actual performance on the site (non-payment strikes, etc.), the FB history is the next best tool. I would not want it masked. Admittedly, it's only of use to a seller where "Best Offer" or auctions are involved, which is a small percentage of sales on eBay anyway. However, the "Best Offer" sales are usually my most important sales.
"As I pointed out above, the type of buying I do is very competitive. I can see that the buyers I compete with never leave NFB and, trust me, the reason for that isn't because they don't have negative experiences. (I read about them all the time.)
We don't leave NFB because we compete with each other and if my competition makes the same offer I made but hasn't left NFB, then her offer will take precedence over mine."
For many of my early years on eBay, I competed in a "white hot" market, mostly in down-to-the-wire auctions. I can't recall ever looking at my competitors' FB left for others, and those were the days when FB was unrestricted and everything was out in the open. Maybe the fact that your competing buyers never leave negative FB has more to do with sellers themselves being in a highly competitive market that demands they be top notch and experienced in order to attract good purchasers.
Frankly I doubt a truly experienced seller in a competitive category is going to judge an offer by the occasional negative FB a buyer has left, if that FB appears reasonable and justified, and especially if the seller knows you and has sold to you previously. As an experienced seller, I can usually spot the true "troublemakers" anyway, and that's where being able to see FB left for others is helpful. I like to expect I'll get paid on a Best Offer (I don't run auctions), and will be unlikely to encounter serious buyer issues.
In any case, I think two identical, concurrent offers (not auction bids), even on an item in high demand, is an extremely rare event on eBay. I've personally only seen it once or twice in over 15 years. In an auction situation, a seller will rarely have the opportunity to vet the FB history of the top bidders anyway, who tend to come in during the last few moments (or seconds!).
I'm having trouble understanding how you would know that your competing buyers have negative experiences by reading about them (unless these people actually tell you openly -- on the boards or elsewhere -- who they are and who they're buying from), since IDs have been masked now for years on eBay?