Cased closed in my favout but eBay refunded the buyer

[rosscd57]

A buyer wanted to start a return. He claimed the radio did not work. I had included the paragraph below ito the radio description.

"Note well: The radio is working fine before shipping. Howsoever, because of the inherent danger of a mistake by the new owner connecting a battery eliminator or batteries to the radio and damaging it - over which I have

no control - the radio comes with no guarantee – expressed or implied."

I called eBy and based on the above paragraph, they opened a case and found in my favour. This only took half and hour from start to finish. The buyer then gave a me a really nasty negative - but that is another story.

What I do not understand is: eBay gave the buyer a refund for the full amount. There was no return. I don't get it. Does he get to keep both the radio and the refund? I does not make sence. Does anyone know what the process is regarding this type of situation?

[reallynicestamps]

EBay gave the refund, not you.

It is a courtesy refund, because - and this is a guess on my part- the radio does not work and eBay wants happy buyers.  And the refund came out of eBay's pockets not yours because your Description and your explanation were reasonable.

It probably helps that you have been consistently selling similar high value and fragile products since 2002 with a stellar record.

The negative has been removed. 
I suspect that neutral could also be removed since it mentions eBay stepping in to a Dispute.

[rosscd57]

Thanks, that is kinda what I fugured. Years ago this happened to me with a purchase.  I bought a radio tube and the seller send me a different tube than was on the listing and of course it did not work. I opened a case and it was found in my favour,  because of course the pictures of the tubes did not match. But   eBay made me open a Police report which I did. Then they refunded the full amount. But, eBay made me ship the bad tube back to them some where in the States. So, does me buyer have to ship the radio to eBay or does he get to keep the radio and the refund as well?

The agent told me yesterday that if I was still not happy with the feedback, to get back to eBay after 24 hours.  I am going to do that and ask that the neutal be removed, as half of it is misleading and the other half makes it look like I lost the case.

[marnotom!]

I'm wondering if in the case of your purchase, you were required to file a police report and return the vacuum tube you purchased because it was suspected stolen merchandise.  Your buyer, on the other hand, will probably be allowed to do whatever they see fit with the item they purchased from you.

Did your buyer try going through you first?  In addition to your "no guarantee" message, you have a 14 day return policy, which some may find confusing.  How would you have dealt with this buyer if they had opened a return request stating that the radio didn't work?

Anyway, your buyer got a refund because the Money Back Guarantee says that they're entitled to one.  eBay cases aren't the same thing as court cases.  There aren't really winners or losers, just outcomes, if that makes any sense.

[pjcdn2005]

Although I understand why the neutral bothers you, eBay does not usually 

take into account what you have written in the description so in this case, you actually saved money by not having to pay for return shipping and then refund.  For some reason, eBay decided to cover the cost of refunding and not require a return.  You can try to get the neutral removed but I don't know what the outcome will be.

[rosscd57]

The tube return was many years ago and I doubt that eBay still uses that policy.

Yep - I do have a 14 day return policy and all he had to do was ask for it. But he wanted the return, because he stated that the purpose of the return was that the radio did not work and that got my dander up.

He also insinuated that I sent him the radio knowing it did not work -  and then he stated that in his negative feedback. He also open up the radio and attemted to repair it. He maintains that he is a 1920's radio expert. He stated that there was no grid leak resistor in the radio - some expert. It was clearyl visable in one of the pictures. He also insinuated that there was likley more problems still in the radio.

This radio takes 5 diferent voltages - from 6 volt up to 135 volts. What likley happened was this "radio expert" hooked it up wrong and burn up the tranformer and blew the single tube. Mix up the  6 volt and the 135 volt and the damages is done in about 1 second.

And lastly he when he wanted a refund he stated that if I refunded him $100, he would drop the return request. I told him to "get stuffed" and opened a case. Which was found in my favour.

I suspect he has pulled this "ask for a partial refund" and it usually works for him.

I will stop this rambling now. Obviously it is still bugging me.

[flipistics]

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@rosscd57 wrote:

A buyer wanted to start a return. He claimed the radio did not work. I had included the paragraph below ito the radio description.

"Note well: The radio is working fine before shipping. Howsoever, because of the inherent danger of a mistake by the new owner connecting a battery eliminator or batteries to the radio and damaging it - over which I have

no control - the radio comes with no guarantee – expressed or implied."

I called eBy and based on the above paragraph, they opened a case and found in my favour. This only took half and hour from start to finish. The buyer then gave a me a really nasty negative - but that is another story.

What I do not understand is: eBay gave the buyer a refund for the full amount. There was no return. I don't get it. Does he get to keep both the radio and the refund? I does not make sence. Does anyone know what the process is regarding this type of situation?

---

You should consider yourself lucky. It probably should not have been closed in your favour. eBay's policies take precedence over anything you put in your description as a disclaimer, and the policies entitle the buyer to open a return a receive a refund in situations like this. The only reason I can think of for the disclaimer to carry weight would be if the category does not have an AS IS condition field. I assume vintage electronics like radios would have that condition option, but perhaps that's a poor assumption on my part.

I doubt they'll remove the neutral, although it certainly doesn't hurt to try. The feedback seems completely reasonable. I also doubt it'll have any effect on you or discourage people from buying from you. If anything, it may give them more confidence.

As far as the buyer keeping the refund (which it sounds like eBay paid out of their own pocket) and the item, completely forget about it. That's between the buyer and eBay. You made a nice sale and the transaction is completed. Move on to restoring the next radio and completely put this one out of your mind.

[byto253]

Agree with the comments that this was a bit of a lucky win if it was relying on the text in the description, as that cannot over-ride the item condition selected.  The standard is if you do not want to take responsibility for it working on arrival, then list as "for parts or repairs".   A buyer may cause a problem but poor packing by a seller (not saying the OP did that!)or really bad shipper handling, can also be a problem .  Snit happens all around.   On vintage audio boards there are a lot of folks who will only sell with the condition of "for parts or repairs".  

The buyer could have just opened the return and indicated it did not work and you would need to pay return shipping.   End of day, sold as working, buyer says it did not work when arrived and the buyer does get to do a return for INAD even if there is a no return policy.   Assuming the buyer damaged it, and the seller saying you sold a defective item, is just a "he said" "she said" situation and I have never seen one of those close in the seller's favour before.   

I have seen it before where a buyer gets refunded but the seller gets the sale proceeds.  Sometimes the bots auto refund when they should not, the seller gets the decision overturned and eBay refunds the seller. 

[reallynicestamps]

I opened a case and it was found in my favour, because of course the pictures of the tubes did not match. But eBay made me open a Police report which I did. Then they refunded the full amount. But, eBay made me ship the bad tube back to them some where in the States.

The police report is usually waived these days, but occasionnally we still see references to one being asked for.

I think this is partly done nowadays when the eBay rep suspects that the buyer is scamming in some way, possibly opening lots of claims hoping to get partial refunds while keeping the purchase. Or just opening "too many" claims.

When you returned the tube, who paid for the return? It's easier nowadays for cross-border returns because of companies like Shippo that sell both USPS and Canada Post services, and eBay also will send appropriate shipping labels and charge the seller for them.

My questions are basically based on the same advice we give to members who latch on to Z0MBlE posts from years previously, that the information and advice may be out of date.

[byto253]

"My questions are basically based on the same advice we give to members who latch on to Z0MBlE posts from years previously, that the information and advice may be out of date."

Good point, better to start a new thread with any questions. 

[pjcdn2005]

The standard is if you do not want to take responsibility for it working on arrival, then list as "for parts or repairs".

That used to be a factor but I've read about many situations when the item was listed in 'for parts or repairs' and the seller was still responsible for return shipping even when the seller appealed.

[sparx_63]

Hello

Had that happen to me when I sold a vintage camera -As Is , For Parts-.  Buyer recieved item and opened an item not as described return (US buyer). I messaged buyer and told him item was sold for parts as is,  he just played dumb (experienced buyer) and did not acknowledge the terms and kept the return open.

I chatted to customer support agent and was told to accept the return or I would lose the case.  I decided I did not want to pay return shipping, negotiated a partial refund, and then blocked & reported the buyer for abuse.

Bottom line,  still made money, dodged that 1% of returns that are BS, and got some satisfaction from reporting. 

You have to treat the dodgy sales as a cost of doing business on EBAY.  Minimize the loss and work it into your bottom line, then move onto the next sale and not get upset:)

[rosscd57]

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@pjcdn2005 wrote:

The standard is if you do not want to take responsibility for it working on arrival, then list as "for parts or repairs".

That is ridiculous. Did you make that that "standard up?  If 20% of my sales have not given me any feedback then I have sold over 1,000 radio on eBay. They all worked - that's why do well. If I sold them for parts and not working, I might have sold 10. My customers want RESTORED vintage radios. Radios that work well,  look great and will continue to give them good service.

This note below was in the radio description. it is a reason for no return - not a way of dodging responsibility.

Note well: The radio is working fine before shipping. Howsoever, because of the inherent danger of a mistake by the new owner connecting a battery eliminator or batteries to the radio and damaging it - over which I have no control - the radio comes with no guarantee – expressed or implied.

I did make one mistake though - I forgot to remove the 14 day return offer. So I would have had to return it for any other reason than the one he used. He said it was not working when I shipped it, which insinuates that I am dishonest. I'm not. The eBay agent mentioned that my 20+ years selling high end merchadise with out any problems and 100% feedback rating went a long way to help them with thier descision. That is why I won the case and kept the payment and luck had nothing go do with it.

Now I remeber why I stoped reading these Boards - too many sellers with too little knowledge. Opinions are not help. I salute those few who do in fact give good advice - but they are few and far between. I am out of here again.

[pjcdn2005]

The sentence that you put under my name was not from me. I was quoting the person that I replied to. 

I doubt that person was  insinuating that you were trying to put off taking responsibility, they were simply stating the way things usually work or have worked in the past.  The fact is that ebay rarely looks at an individual case like that and rules in the seller's favour regardless of the seller's feedback record or length of selling history.  eBay's usual view is that the seller is responsible to have an item delivered in working order and because they (ebay) aren't there when the item is delivered they take the buyer's word for it that the item wasn't working when they received it. 

In your case ebay decided that both you and the buyer shouldn't be out any money so they did a courtesy refund.  That's great that you did not have to be out any money but you shouldn't be mad at anyone here for making a comment. 

As far as advice, yes some of it is good and some it isn't, just like on any discussion board.  But keep in mind that the advice someone gives may have worked for them but ebay isn't always consistent so their advice may not work for another poster.  

[byto253]

That was me, not pjcdn2005.  And I stand by the statement.  The reason is that you listed the radio as "used" and selected that from the options available, and agreed to the description provided by eBay, as below. 

"Used
An item that has been used previously. The item may have some signs of cosmetic wear, but is fully operational and functions as intended. This item may be a floor model or store return that has been used. See the seller’s listing for full details and description of any imperfections."

That is the description you agreed to when listing.   Whether you like it or not, the buyer is covered under eBay's Money Back Guarantee when buying a used item, which applies for all listings, even ones that have a "No Return" policy.   You are on the hook for it working on arrival.   It is not a return per say, but a claim for Item Not As Described - they are not the same thing.   Yes, it is open for abuse but those are the terms we agree to.   

A seller cannot insert terms or wordage in a description which contradicts or nullifies the eBay description they selected.   What you are doing is selling as used, as defined by eBay, but wanting to apply terms where you don't have the responsibility of a DOA item which is only applicable to the condition selection of "for parts or not working".   The terms you inserted in the description do not over-ride the condition selection and you were fortunate to get reimbursed.   I am actually suprised the CR went along with it, but that is good news for you.  

This is why some vintage audio sellers list using "for parts or not working"  and in the listing indicate something like it is working for them but they cannot guarantee that vintage gear will continue working or be ok after transport, so it is being sold as "for parts or not working" .  If you are around the audiokarma boards you will see that discussed from time to time. 

I have sold a couple of hundred pieces of audio equipment on eBay,  plus many parts.  That includes tube ham radio gear as well, and most of that I list as "for parts or not working"  even if it seems to be ok because it is very old, and can be dodgy.  None of mine have been as old as a 1921 radio though.   With the age of the radio, it can be true that the buyer got it DOA even though it left your hands in great shape - it's old gear and stuff happens.    Under the used listing condition, he/she were within the eBay rules to make an INAD claim. 

Changing from a 14 day return policy to no returns has no impact on the situation if listing as used.