eBay

dutchman48 · ‎05-04-2017

I bought some stuff from a seller in Estonia and may have to return it as a SNAD

Here is what Canada Post wants for return postage with no insurance or signature.

Options

Mailing Tube	$1.50
Delivery Confirmation	Incl.
Signature Option	$2.50

*Coverage Details: Up to $100.00 included. Maximum $1,000.00 @ $2.25 per $100.00.

Please note:
These prices are estimates and subject to adjustment by Canada Post.
Limitations to size, weight and coverage vary for international destinations (See Postal Guide).
.

Rate Summary

Regular price	$407.71
Coverage	Update	$0.00
Options	$0.00
Fuel Surcharge	$31.60
Tax	$0.00
Total	$439.31

Choose your preferred service and proceed to estimate the duties and taxes

Who will have to pay this if shipping here was a quarter of that cost?

This is absolutely insane.

esclyons · ‎05-04-2017

if the item was significantly not as described, the seller has to make it right, including return shipping, or they can offer you a partial refund, or just allow you to keep it, if they don't want to pay for return shipping. talk to the seller first, see what happens, if you are not pleased with their answers, then open a case.

dutchman48 · ‎05-04-2017

Already in the works.

I can't believe the cost from Canada Post.

I have heard rumors that return shipping can't be more than original shipping and of course Ebay is so clear in their rules and policies.

No wonder people don't want to send internationally. Any returns would kill them for anything other than letter mail.

Anonymous · ‎05-04-2017

It is at the International sellers' advantage knowing fully that we cannot afford the mail service with a tracking number to return our items when they required us to return the items to them.

I bought an item that came damaged bend half like you wouldn't believe due to poor packaging and this seller demanded that I return it and it would cost $85.50 XpressPost (no Tracked Packet to his country) but refused to pay $85.50, he suggest I return it by regular mail! He send it by registered mail but demand me to return it by regular mail, how unfair he is! I have opened a dispute with PayPal and hope PayPal will be on my side, wait and see. By regular mail, he could claim he never received it, then I am out of an expensive item and $$. What a fantastic way to deal with us from the International countries making $$ on our behalf.

dutchman48 · ‎05-04-2017

If you can't file through Ebay, Paypal will make you pay the return shipping.

momcqueen · ‎05-04-2017

Honeybed, if the seller asks the buyer to return a SNAD by mail without tracking, that voids the delivery confirmation requirement of the Return.* It's in the MoneyBank Guarantee. The seller cannot have it both ways, if they don't want to pay for a Tracked Return. they have to Refund regardless of whether the case shows Delivered. Proof of Shipment is required. Note this is for cases where seller says 'send it back via regular mail' only and not the ones where the buyer wants to make a Remorse Return and sends without tracking.

Dutchman, if your case is a SNAD, the cost of Return Postage is irrelevant. It's the seller's problem. I don't see this as a Canada Post problem as much as it is a shoddy seller problem. Sellers have to put their money where their mouth is. If the stuff sold is cruddy or poorly packed, Return postage is on the seller, regardless of the cost or distance it must travel.

*Must be shown in ebay Messages for CSR to see and confirm.

dutchman48 · ‎05-04-2017

What I am getting at is two fold:

I have never had to pay that kind of shipping for anything coming from Europe.

Now I see what some Europeans refuse to send heavy stuff to Canada but will send it to the USA.

If there ever is a problem, they get shafted with CP huge return shipping.

From Canada, if you want tracking, it has to go Express Post which is ridiculous. This is a 15 KG box.

hlmacdon · ‎05-04-2017

@dutchman48 wrote:
What I am getting at is two fold:

I have never had to pay that kind of shipping for anything coming from Europe.

Now I see what some Europeans refuse to send heavy stuff to Canada but will send it to the USA.

If there ever is a problem, they get shafted with CP huge return shipping.

From Canada, if you want tracking, it has to go Express Post which is ridiculous. This is a 15 KG box.

Shipping internationally with Canada Post is pricey as their margins are relatively high (international export shipping is used to subsidize the shortfall on incoming international). Canada is generally more expensive to air freight to than the US but depending on the carrier it isn't a dramatic difference.

Now that being said air freight in general for heavy items like that is expensive, especially depending on dimensional weight. I air freight in all my inventory and it adds up to a rather large amount by the end of the year. $439 CAD isn't out of the ballpark really.The whole return thing gets complicated with international sales when you have to factor in tracking and weights are up there. Many sellers in asia are aware of this and exploit this with buyers, especially given most don't insure their packages given they are lying about the values on the export declaration.

pjcdn2005 · ‎05-05-2017

I have heard rumors that return shipping can't be more than original shipping and of course Ebay is so clear in their rules and policies.

I don't remember if that rule is still valid but it was never for international shipments, just US domestic transactions and the seller had to be in the managed returns program (or some similar program..I don't remember which one).

sylviebee · ‎05-05-2017

@mjwl2006 wrote:

Dutchman, if your case is a SNAD, the cost of Return Postage is irrelevant. It's the seller's problem. I don't see this as a Canada Post problem as much as it is a shoddy seller problem. Sellers have to put their money where their mouth is. If the stuff sold is cruddy or poorly packed, Return postage is on the seller, regardless of the cost or distance it must travel.

Yes, that statement nails it.

It is a shoddy seller problem.

A surprisingly large number of sellers are not aware of the policy that sellers pay return shipping for SNAD items, and/or they gamble that buyers are not aware of it.

Concealing damage with the idea that buyers wouldn't pay expensive return shipping with tracking worked like a charm in the past. I got nailed many times. When eBay starting charging sellers for return shipping for SNAD items that should have put a stop to that practice, but it hasn't (yet).

IMO one of the best moves by eBay was charging sellers for return shipping for those items. Yet, many sellers continue to conceal or downplay damage. In the physical world advertising includes presenting items in their best possible light, but that should not work for selling on line.

Damage should be upfront and central in the description, and yet many sellers continue to bury that information in the listing and/or not mention or picture condition issues at all.

pjcdn2005 · ‎05-05-2017

That statement nails it in many and probably most cases. There are many reports on other boards of buyers who don't want to pay for return shipping claiming a nad when it should be considered a buyers remorse return. Granted, those reports are from a sellers point of view so the item is probably nad in some cases however, it is difficult for a seller to challenge a nad claim without being penalized. The system definitely needs tweaking in a few areas.

sylviebee · ‎05-05-2017

@pjcdn2005 wrote:
That statement nails it in many and probably most cases. There are many reports on other boards of buyers who don't want to pay for return shipping claiming a nad when it should be considered a buyers remorse return. Granted, those reports are from a sellers point of view so the item is probably nad in some cases however, it is difficult for a seller to challenge a nad claim without being penalized. The system definitely needs tweaking in a few areas.

For INAD situations it's extremely rare for sellers not to blame buyers. I've come to the conclusion that most sincerely believe they are being scammed.

I recently had a case where the seller accused me of everything in the book and refused to take responsibility. He was really nasty.

I finally copied his original photos and blew them up until the damage could be seen in his original photos and sent those pictures to him. Even with that kind of clear irrefutable evidence he still continued to deny responsibility. The last time I heard from him he sent me a picture of him giving me the finger.

That is fairly typical of the way these things play out. For me the most difficult aspect of eBay is when sellers don't describe items accurately.

I'm hoping that the move to have sellers pay return shipping "takes" and changes that situation, but so far it hasn't even made a dent.

I also know that when I first started selling and a buyer would claim that the item arrived damaged I was the same. I was 100% sure I was being scammed until I started to take a closer look. The buyers were right 100% of the time.

Now, when a buyer claims that an item has more damage than described I believe them, apologize, make things right, and move on.

IMO it's very rare for buyers to falsely claim INAD. When items arrive as expected most buyers are thrilled.

sylviebee · ‎05-05-2017

In addition to having sellers pay return shipping for SNAD items, eBay should not allow others to view the FB left for Sellers by individual buyers available to others.

Getting rid of that feature would go a long way towards cleaning things right up. Other sites don't make that information available and it serves no useful purpose.

hlmacdon · ‎05-05-2017

@sylviebee wrote:
@pjcdn2005 wrote:
That statement nails it in many and probably most cases. There are many reports on other boards of buyers who don't want to pay for return shipping claiming a nad when it should be considered a buyers remorse return. Granted, those reports are from a sellers point of view so the item is probably nad in some cases however, it is difficult for a seller to challenge a nad claim without being penalized. The system definitely needs tweaking in a few areas.
For INAD situations it's extremely rare for sellers not to blame buyers. I've come to the conclusion that most sincerely believe they are being scammed.

IMO it's very rare for buyers to falsely claim INAD. When items arrive as expected most buyers are thrilled.

It really depends on the category you sell in, it is not uncommon to see INAD cases filed for remore/mistaken purchases at a more frequent rate in some categories, especially given the prevalence of mobile buying and the **bleep**py way ebay handles the mobile layout. That being said since you can never prove anything as a seller and products aren't in your chain of custody until delivery, your best recourse it simply provide the buyer with a return, pay for the return shipping and treat the customer with respect. If the buyer is a true scammer, they will usually throw a fit at this point and show their hand to the extent that you can get ebay/paypal to step in if merited.

Unfortunately even forcing sellers to pay return shipping won't meaningfully address the situation you describe. The more irresponsible sellers know only a percentage of buyers will force the issue and go through the protection steps. Ebay actively encourages sellers to use photos that aren't their own and do not represent the item being sold, so it is just a numbers game in the end.

reallynicestamps · ‎05-05-2017

eBay should not allow others to view the FB left for Sellers by individual buyers available to others.

I'm baffled by this.

In my opinion, FB from buyers is a very useful metric for future buyers.

As is the FB left by sellers.

I wish that the buyers who leave FB did not have their names masked, so we could see if they are 'serial neggers' or if this is a one off bad experience.

sylviebee · ‎05-06-2017

@reallynicestamps wrote:
eBay should not allow others to view the FB left for Sellers by individual buyers available to others.

I'm baffled by this.
In my opinion, FB from buyers is a very useful metric for future buyers.
As is the FB left by sellers.

I wish that the buyers who leave FB did not have their names masked, so we could see if they are 'serial neggers' or if this is a one off bad experience.

femme, I know I’m not going to change your mind and trust me, I have no intention of trying to do that, but since you asked I’ll explain the way I see this and other FB issues.

Experienced and serious buyers have learned never to leave NFB because it only comes back to bite them.
Smart buyers don’t leave NFB, and crooks who are good at what they do don’t either.

Buyers who leave NFB were usually in some kind of shouting match with the seller and use NFB to land a final blow and what we see most of the time with NFB is an act of vengeance and the culmination of an exchange of nasty messages between buyer and seller.

If eBay stopped allowing members to view FB left for others we’d

1). See a lot more NFB with honest assessments of the service.

2.) Sales for good sellers would increase for two reasons. First they'd stop banning buyers who leave NFB. It gives some sellers the allusion on control but it's not real. Second, honest FB would steer buyers towards better sellers (like you) because buyers would have the opportunity to see what’s really gong on behind the scenes.

In general, the practice of leaving FB is barbaric. eBay was the first to ritualize Public Shaming with the FB process. I don’t think anyone was prepared for the power of that kind of public shaming, but now that we know it’s high time to put a stop to that abusive practice.
eBay stopped allowing sellers to leave NFB for buyers and it’s high time to stop allowing buyers to leave NFB for sellers, but the next step could be to stop allowing sellers to vet buyers according to FB left of others.

dutchman48 · ‎05-06-2017

How did this thread get off topic. If you would like to discuss the pros of feedback, please start a new thread.

Thank you

sylviebee · ‎05-06-2017

Since the topic of the original thread died a long time ago, there is no reason to start a new thread (not sure why you think so), but since you asked............. if you makes you happy. 🙂

All right.

You're Welcome.

pierrelebel · ‎05-06-2017

"Experienced and serious buyers have learned never to leave NFB because it only comes back to bite them.
Smart buyers don’t leave NFB, and crooks who are good at what they do don’t either."

I have seen many strange statements by posters on eBay boards over the years. However, this one takes the top spot.

The facts are that most experienced and serious buyers do leave feedback. I have the numbers to prove it.

Some buyers do not. They come here to buy and do not care about leaving feedback. It is not relevant to them. That's OK. It is a free world and leaving feedback is optional.

Finally those suffering from advanced paranoia do not leave feedback.