!!! Buyer can leave negative, even with an unpaid strike !!!!

[doufaceb]

Buyer can leave negative even has an unpaid strike on this transaction.

Recenlty my friend sold sth to a new buyer.
(In the list, he clearly said item is opened.)
Buyer didn't pay for the item for 2 weeks.
So, my friend opened an unpaid dispute.
But buy still didn't pay for it and leave one message in dispute page " item is used, but seller listed it as opened" (what's taht logic)
After 8 days, my friend closed the dispute and gave him an unpaid strike.
Suddenly, he found the buyer left a negative feedback. Even worse, the feedback shows and affected the score!!!

He reported this to ebay and get this message:

A buyer responds to the Unpaid Item process, but in replying to it the buyer does not express dissatisfaction with the seller or the item. Subsequently the seller issues an Unpaid Item strike against the buyer.

[doufaceb]

So, here it is.

Buy some item.
Don't pay.
Wait seller open a dispute.

then,
1, respond it.
2, express dissatisfaction with the seller or the item

then leave a negative.

in this case you can leave negative for no reason, even don't need pay.

[doufaceb]

Seller Beware this situation.

Unpaid dispute is not totally works for seller.

if buyer express dissatisfaction with the seller or the item, it won't work well for seller anymore.

[tesgartor]

wow, we are totally screwed, they can do what ever they like with us.

[lina-mallows]

OK- here's another TWIST.

BUYER PAYS for the item- files the NON-RECEIPT dispute- then leaves POSITIVE feedback, after having received the item.
The PayPal dispute (still open) is escalated by us- as the seller-
BECAUSE-
A) we have Proof that the item was sent.
B) The BUYER has left POSITIVE FB for the item.

What is unclear that the item was both sent- and received?

So- while we did not receive a NEGATIVE FB-
the BUYER has BOTH the ITEM & the $$$.

According to PayPal: "After careful consideration of the evidence provided in the case detailed
below, we have completed our investigation and decided in favor of the
buyer. Under terms of our User Agreement, we have debited the following
amount from your PayPal account as a refund to the buyer: $XXXXX"

[recped]

A - Why did you escalate?

B - What "proof" of delivery did you have?

[momoftwingles2]

doufaceb,

Once a buyer responds to an unpaid item dispute they have the right to leave feedback. It is only when they don't respond that they forfeit that right.

Susan
momoftwingles2

[lina-mallows]

recped- if at first you read carefully- I said I had PROOF that the item was mailed.
AND- the fact that the BUYER had already posted POSITIVE FB upon receipt is evidence of its delivery.

So- Maybe yes- you assume, as well as we would that the item was delivered.

Based on these two facts- why shouldn't we escalate to have the OPEN case CLOSED, and reviewed by PayPal.

There is nothing further to comment on with the buyer.
They have the item.
We created a j.peg of the CN22 with their address- and all the relevant Postal information.
As well- we sent a screen shot of the POSITIVE Feedback they had posted.

So, again- the buyer admitted they had the item- regardless of our inability to provide a SIGNATURE received upon delivery.

THIS ITEM WAS US$5.38 (just an aside!)

PayPal REVERSED the transactions- and refunded all the BUYER'S money.

The system simply does not work.
It's the buyer laughing in our face that they have BOTH the item and the money that's most galling.

[sourcenaturals]

CN22? paypal specifically asks for tracking#'s. Customs forms(CN22), even if its date stamped are not acceptable proof of shipment...right?

Jay

[momoftwingles2]

Hi Jay,

I believe you are correct. The form used for Small Packet is not acceptable proof because there is NO tracking number with it.

Susan
momoftwingles2

[pierrelebel]

"I said I had PROOF that the item was mailed"

Sorry, proof the item was mailed is not a requirement of the PayPal Seller Protection program. The program requires online tracking (signature is not required for less than $250).

"AND- the fact that the BUYER had already posted POSITIVE B upon receipt is evidence of its delivery.""

Once again, a feednback on eBay is not part of the requirements for the PayPal Seller Protection program.

For more information of the Seller Protection Program, please take a look at:

https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/ua/policy_spp-outside#spp-policy .

[lina-mallows]

Absolutely a CN22 is not PROOF OF DELIVERY.
It merely acts as evidence that the item was sent.

HOWEVER- the BUYER left clear unambiguous feedback that they had received the item- and were pleased with it.

SO- if the item was mailed- and the item was received- a PayPal REVERSAL appears to be nothing more than a slap in the face of the seller!

[dagr8_renaud]

same thing happened to me ,

lets say all sellers offer only shipping trackable on every item , then business of eBay would go down .. a lot

then maybe they would consider changing there paypal policies , but truth is they don't care , paypal is too big to even bother ..

on the other hand us Power Seller have a say in what happens on eBay , please read my post about new eBay policies regarding feedback , and make some suggestions regarding action we should take ..thank you all.

[jakeeangel]

Proof of mailing and feedback received for a transaction has never ever come into play for PayPal Seller Protection. It doesn't matter to them. What matter is proof of delivery. No proof of delivery means you'll lose any claim. It's always been that way.

---

When you find doing what's right hard to do - you've got a problem.

[lina-mallows]

jakeeangel- I agree that all PayPal is concerned with is "PROOF OF DELIVERY".

In the real world, and likely every Court of Law in this land- If the person who was to receive the items- clearly, and unequivocally, states that they have THOSE items; what reason could there possibly be for the SENDER/SELLER having to prove what the RECIPIENT/BUYER have themselves already admitted?

[jewelry_quest]

Get this one everyone. I sent a package to a buyer and I had it insured with a tracking number. The buyer contacts Paypal to state they didn't receive their package although I had proof via the tracking number it was delivered. The buyer moves during the shipment process before the item is delivered and tells paypal this but fails to foward us their new mailing address and fails to place it on their Paypal payment. So the buyer opens a dispute and we of course esculate the dispute to a claim because we know the item was delivered to the buyers confirmed shipping address on Paypal. The buyer never contacts us of a move or a new forwarding address. Paypal went in the favour of the buyer and not only did they refund the purchase price but all the shipping costs as well to the buyer. I tried to fight it and sent all necessary documents to Paypal on 2 separate occassions and they still went in the buyers favour. Now all a buyer has to do is state they moved and they will get refunded! Yet another new twist in this dilema!

**Gloria**

[doufaceb]

To jewelry_quest:

I cannot beleive you lost in this case.

It is totally buyer's fault that they didn't provide the correct address.
Plus you shipped the item to paypal confirmed address.

Anybody tell me, now how can we ship the item?

[saanderson18]

Paypal/Ebay see their profit margins and us sellers matter not. I had a buyer send me an email stating that they would lie outright to Paypal about the fact that they had received an item and it would not matter because then they would be refunded and get it free. Obviously, in addition to proof of receipt, shipping, etc I forwarded the email to Paypal. I was told by the untrained twits at Paypal that this was not important and I lost. This was a new ebay customer. "Hi, welcome to ebay where you too can take your seller for a ride."

[jakeeangel]

Are you sure you had a tracking number and not just an insurance number? How did you send the package because only a few services to the US have tracking/delivery confirmation? Xpresspost envelopes, Expedited shipping & Xpresspost shipping. Those are the only ones that have delivery confirmation.

If you sent it with anything other than those, you didn't have tracking. If you sent it through PayPal shipping and thought that the box marked tracking is - it isn't! Sorry you found out the hard way. It's only an insurance number if you have to make a claim for a missing package, it's not tracking and they shouldn't put it there but they do.

---

When you find doing what's right hard to do - you've got a problem.

[dipmicro]

You guys are forgetting that you have same defensive tools available to you as the brick-and-mortar store. The theft is a theft regardless on how eBay classifies it. The fraud is a fraud regardless on what PayPal thinks about it.

What will Walmart do if you put a bubble-gum in your pocket and walk away? I wonder myself - it's a small ticket item. Will they engage security? Will the security file a report with police? Will they press shoplifting charges?

Imagine ... a criminal record for fraudulent PayPal claim 😉