Extorsion and blackmail from buyer

[anguscoinshop]

I received the following message from a bad buyer ;

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I phoned trust and safety, she told me over the phone that it is ebay policy to support the buyer with his extortion and blackmail attempt, therefore they will not remove the negative.

This is a very dangerous first.

[rose-dee]

Can you provide some background about this transaction from your side and how it got to this point?  It isn't clear from the buyer's note what happened.  

I suspect that unless you can prove to eBay that the buyer specifically mentioned eBay feedback in his extortion, they won't deal with his negative FB or him.  I'm not saying this isn't a disgraceful note to receive from a buyer, but you know eBay -- if it isn't black and white, it isn't a problem.  

[mr.elmwood]

I had one like this a couple years ago. Threatened me with everything under the sun. I was a: liar, cheat, thief, estoppel something, bait and switch. He wanted a refund plus costs plus damages, have your lawyer contact my lawyer, I am turning this over to eBay legal dept.

After he left the neg I simply said "return for refund". He kept it up for a while and I simply ignored him. I ended up keeping the money, $40. Yeah, forty.

Angus, do NOT get engaged in a conversation. You cannot argue with a stupid person, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. Do NOT respond to threats.

Ignore them and they move onto their next victim.

[femmefan1946]

The "social media" and "Better Business Bureau" part is blowing smoke. Ignore it.

Is there an open case with Paypal/eBay? He has a lot less than six weeks to respond to your dispute.

You are not required to refund without a return. (I'm sure you know this, but other less experienced sellers will read this too.)

Did he return the item? Even if he did not use Confirmed Delivery, an ethical seller like yourself (and you and I may disagree-- a lot-- but you have always struck me as a righteous man) would refund without being forced to.

Did you do the refund through Paypal? For once, PP will be your friend. You need only quote the PP transaction number to win the case. Again, this is why many posters discourage buyers from using cheques, money orders, or cash payments, even though as sellers we love them.  Further, by refunding a PP payment through PP, you get those annoying fees back.

If he did not pay for the item, and did not agree to a Mutual Cancellation, you are in difficulty. The transaction does remain open.

However, the worst he can do is trash your DSRs and leave a neg. In spite of your current group of negs and neutrals your FB rating is good and so are your DSRs. You probably can take this.

Might I make an unsolicited suggestion? Don't leave Responses anymore. Especially ones with exclamation points and CAPS. Let the complainer look like a drooling anger monkey. You only draw attention with your responses and not the right kind.

[pierrelebel]

Taking a look at the two negative feedbacks left recently, both listings had to do with the same product:

2013 Canada 14k $75 Gold Coin Superman™: The Early Years

and it appears in both cases the seller could not deliver and the transaction not completed or payment refunded leaving the buyer rather unhappy.

That is why two negative feedback from two different buyers were left.

Does the message constitute extorsion or blackmail?  Is it against eBay policies?

I guess it is a matter of interpretation and, based on the original post, eBay decided there was no infraction to their policy.

From this point, everyone is entitled to an opinion.

[pierrelebel]

As indicated in one of the feedbacks, this item now sells for much much more than the price shown in the original fixed price listings;

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=25&_from=R40&_armrs=1&_sacat=0&_nkw=superman+gold

[anguscoinshop]

That message was after it was all said and done including the refund and before the neg.

There are certain things i'm willing to let go but when a buyer tries to extort, blackmail me for money on a no sale and ebay backs him!

Sorry, that doesn't work with me.

I had to go to Barrie this morning at the court house to file a writ at the same time i got the paperwork to file a claim in small claim court, i will file both against him and ebay.

[rose-dee]

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@angus_coin_shop wrote:

That message was after it was all said and done including the refund and before the neg.

There are certain things i'm willing to let go but when a buyer tries to extort, blackmail me for money on a no sale and ebay backs him! 

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Sorry, maybe I'm missing something important in this scenario, but are you saying you refunded the buyer, and then he sent his nasty little message demanding proof of the refund?  Why did he need to extort you to get the proof?  Was the refund not done through Paypal -- if so, he would have a record of it.  If not, do you have confirmation that he actually received his refund?  It seems from his neg. FB that he wanted the item even more than he wanted a refund.  

So if I understand this situation correctly, the buyer was thwarted from getting his item due to circumstances beyond your control (whatever those were), got his refund, and then decided he was still angry at you because he couldn't get the item he originally wanted, believing you had stopped the sale because you could get a better price elsewhere.  He then left the neg. FB as retaliation?  Is that accurate?  If so, I'd write him off as a hysteric, and forget him.  He expected that he should make the money off reselling the item, rather than you.  

I don't think a Small Claims action will do anything to get the outcome changed, or to get eBay's attention.  It will just end up costing you more money (in court filing fees, delivering the claim, etc.), and a lot of your time spent on further court filings and possibly appearances.  I don't quite see what claim could be filed in Small Claims court in this instance.  It doesn't sound as if you've incurred a loss over this transaction, and you can't file a Small Claims action if you're alleging criminal wrongdoing -- that's a matter to report to the appropriate police jurisdiction.  

Large corporations get claims and Writs filed against them all the time and hand them over to someone in their legal department to file a pro forma defence, then hire a local lawyer if necessary to dispense with them at court.  They have deep pockets to deal with those annoyances.  If your claim is not for a specific monetary loss that can be proven (on the written evidence), then it will be dismissed and you may end up paying the defendant's legal fees and disbursements as well as your own.  

In the end, for what my own opinion is worth, this will cause you a lot more grief to pursue than to put behind you.  If I sound as if I know something about legal proceedings, I do -- I spent over 20 years as a paralegal.  In my experience few litigants actually come out ahead after all the cost, time waste and emotional involvement is tallied up.  

[rosscd57]

And, for what it's worth - you need to cool way down before you respond to negative feedback. All of your responses are aggressive, defensive and nasty. Just remember - a lot of buyers, including myself, also look at Feedback Left For Others from the seller before a purchase.

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[anguscoinshop]

As indicated in one of the feedbacks, this item now sells for much much more than the price shown in the original fixed price listings;

it doesn't matter, i cant sell what i dont have and cant get.

for the first time in 5 years, my supplier pulled those coins from under my feet. 2 out of 3 could not understand that i wasn't going to commit business suicide with a confrontation with my supplier.

Regardless, ebay has already legislated attitude on there site. Extortion/blackmail of any form, implied, suggestive ect has no place anywhere.

As i said, over the phone, ebay confirmed they do support Extortion/blackmail of any form, implied, suggestive on part of the buyers.

[cumos55]

What I see...

(1) Item was listed

(2) Item was bought

(3) Buyer paid.

(4) Payment was refunded... Paypal should have a record of the refund... unless there was another method of payment.....   

(5) Refund was made because seller did not have the item listed.

(6) Buyer left negative feedback.

There is a problem here ... only .... if the payment by the buyer was not through Paypal

[brandeentertainment]

Yeah I have made a few not so nice replies to feedback but your replies WOW man everyone is blocked ... The whole your teeth will fall out comment ..

Although I find this stuff pretty **bleep** funny to read I would guess you have lost a couple dozen sales just to you replies alone ..

I hope you stick it to the man here but i notice a pretty clear message from your feedback .. If you don't like how I feel about a purchase with you I will be blocked...

Some people are just giving you what they felt on the feedback which you can not control ...

Some people are justified in what they say ..

Some are just Aholes

but at the end of day the only one who HAS to be mature and respectful is you not your customer ..

I had a guy tell me my shipping was to but it was less then actual ..

Same guy said shipping time was too slow it arrived on day 4 minimum expected arrival..

Told I did not communicate fast enough with a clear response on when item shipped .. Showed hiim the message i sent 4 hrs after there questions..

The end of the day I was told your not perfect get off your high horse...

My reply to the feedback statment is not a fact just a personal feeling..

It was pointed out to me about a year ago to be careful of feedback replies I changed that just less then a year ago .. I suggest you change the way you reply because your replies are childish no matter how you slice it and even though it is what we would all love to say it's just not how anyone should do it ..

Good luck partner

[mr.elmwood]

Brande, what goes around comes around. I used to dish it out ss well. Up until about 5-6 years ago. Then, I was on a thread and someone dug out my past responses and I was publicly vilified. I was publicly told to be professional, that snarky replies did me more damage than good. Snarky, petty replies, only served to make me look bad.

I changed very quickly.

When one loses the need for revenge, the effect of an assault is greatly diminished. I will not stoop to a low level of dialogue, so, gutter dialogue has no affect on me.

Being nice to people, I sleep very well at night.

[brandeentertainment]

As hard as it is sometimes you just have to bite your tungue and think about the future buyers and what they will see and think.. i am waiting for what I think is my last bad response to disaappear this month ...

It really does have a big affect .. i used to have buyer tell me i was going to buy from you but your responses to feedback is very unprofessional...

one of the last neutrals I got what i wanted to right was your a complete idiot and are just making stuff up because you don't get it but I have to be professional so i ranted on here and message buyer politly and responsed to feedback reasonably..

tuff sometimes but sellers are the ones who need to be the grown up in the relationship and hope the buyers will be too but if not the adult must let the kids play ..

[brandeentertainment]

I just checked out your neutrals...

Man i have never said this because I am as easy going as they get but me looking at your responses you would never get a penny from me If I read before i buy.

Buyer should be reporting you wow ...

Be nice not everyone is out to get you LOL

[renfrewite]

I see you are a drop shipper.  Sorry but I don't believe in drop shipping, if I don't have the item I am selling in my house, so I can inspect it before shipping it out, I won't put it up for auction.  It also leads to unhappy buyers when your supplier doesn't ship the item, as you can see is what has happened here.  I also don't like when sellers sell something then refund the buyer because they got a higher offer from someone else, so they then put it up for auction at a higher price. I don't see any black mail or extortion going on here, I just see unhappy buyers.

[cumos55]

Angus coin has a B & M Store in a town in Southern Ontario, very close to Toronto.

[mr.elmwood]

Cumos, the last two negs that Angus earned were for selling that which they did not have. It spiralled out of control from there. Opening post contained the buyer's threats and 'tude, which, appear to be in response to Angus' 'tude.

Selling what ya don't have, back out saying "I don't have it", when it appears to the buyer that the seller could easily get more money for it. Angus sold it for $840, well, listed it, sold, reneged at $840. Now, they are selling at around $2000.

To the buyer, this smells and smells badly.

[mr.elmwood]

It gets worse.

Angus sold a coin on Sept 11:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2013-Canada-14k-75-Gold-Coin-Superman-The-Early-Years-/190900356506?nma=true...

On the 22nd he sold a remarkably simmilar coinf ro $2995:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2013-Canada-14k-75-Gold-Coin-Superman-The-Early-Years-0807-2000-In-Stock-/19...

What does this look like to the original buyer who was told "out of stock"?

[cumos55]

I recently listed a book and made a mistake on international shipping,.

Buyer in Greece paid shipping to the US,  $18.50... for Tracked Packet  USA

Should have been $39.00,  International Parcel Surface to Greece.

I Sent a $25 book to Greece using Small Packet Air or $35..  no insurance 

Made a few dollars... and no effect on feedback.

Immediately listed another copy  and have already forgotten  a mistake was made.... until now

Just do not make the same mistake again.... and Sometimes you just do it.. and forget it....

Admittedly the difference between $840 and $2000   is a lot more than a buck or two...

Buyer's action is called

arbitrage...

the simultaneous buying and selling of securities, currency, or commodities in different markets or in derivative forms in order to take advantage of differing prices for the same asset.