07-16-2013 07:30 PM
http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/hungry-aboriginal-people-subject-of-experiments-paper-finds-2
07-16-2013 08:56 PM
07-17-2013 08:21 PM
So you proud kanadians who preach they live in the best country in the world,still proud?????
kanada has a long history of native child abuse. Still proud????
Its time we flip this country upside down.
W1
07-17-2013 10:46 PM
I think you know me enough by now that when I say.........the past is in the past........you will understand that the most important thing right now is the .......Future. The future for your children and the next generation and the next generation and at the same time bringing justice for those in the past so that all they went through had a purpose.
The First Nations people and I have said this many times, need to get together as ONE.......undefeatable, unbreakable, and with a solid leader and make the changes through whatever means. There is an election in the horizon......now is the time.
07-18-2013 09:52 AM
kanada has a long history of native child abuse. Still proud????
My wife and I spent agood part of our lives as foster parents.
We were called a receiving home. We got kids who were just being taken into care by Childrens Aid.
We had more than 300 kids spend time with us - anywhere from a day to over a year
(even though social workers could only place kids in our home for 4 weeks max.).
Approx. one third of those kids were abused native children - abused or neglected by their native parents.
Yes I am proud to be a Canadian. We did a lot of good for those kids.
We never talked down to them. We never said disparaging things about their heritage or about their parents.
We provided them with a warm cozy bed, lots of good food and lots of love.
We quickly learned that we could only care for these kids while they were in our home. We could not control
what happened to them once they were returned to their parents. We had one lovely young child named Cheryl.
She spent Christmas with us. It was a joyous Christmas for all who had the opportunity to meet her. Just after
New Years Day, Cheryl was returned to her mother. Mother took Cheryl with her on an evening of drinking.
Extremely intoxicated, mom decided to walk home at 2:00 am. Cheryl and her mother were struck by a car (driven
by an impaired native). Both were killed. Cheryl was 18 months old. She was an amazing child who never had a chance
to live up to her potential. My wife and I - and all who had met Cheryl - were devastated.
I could write a book about our experiences with native children. I won't because there were too many sad endings.
I know the rationale that is usually given about why natives abuse and neglect their kids. It is all because of the white
man. I will buy into some of that. But, like Prior, I have often said that the natives need to act as one. They need a
common goal or goals. They need to fight for those goals. The white man put the natives where they are today.
Only the natives have the desire and the power to change that.
07-19-2013 07:13 AM
@prior-of-verity*shake-hands-with-your-devil wrote:I think you know me enough by now that when I say.........the past is in the past........you will understand that the most important thing right now is the .......Future. The future for your children and the next generation and the next generation and at the same time bringing justice for those in the past so that all they went through had a purpose.
The First Nations people and I have said this many times, need to get together as ONE.......undefeatable, unbreakable, and with a solid leader and make the changes through whatever means. There is an election in the horizon......now is the time.
Yes past is past but attrocities by canada and canadians must be revealed.
We are looking to the future for our children. This requires vast stretches of land so we can continue our cultural ways.
We are one. Last winters idle no more is a great example. This will only grow larger as needed as our battles dealing with racist goverments and its racist population will continue.
Did not take long for the racists to rise and mock hunger strikers and idle no more as we tryed to make the so-called "changes through whatever means" you speak of.
For the most part natives are tired of canadians and its our way or no way goverments.
This is our land period.
W1
07-19-2013 05:02 PM
Yes the past, must be revealed in all it's horror. I do find it interesting that although it has been in the media, there has been little said after the occasional article. If this had happened to other races, specific ones, I'm willing to bet it would have been all over the print media and TV and talk shows for weeks and weeks. The same with the DNA findings about the First Nation people starting out west, proving how long they have existed on this land. Hardly a mention.
When it comes to Idle No More, it proves to me anyhow that the First Nations people need to band more together. It seems to have died off and that's not good. The bigots and the racists are using its absence for their own cannon fodder. If one wants to break a rock, you have to keep hitting at it over and over and over until it cracks in two.
As far as "Canadians" are concerned, there are a LOT of people who not only agree with you and First Nations people, but they have put themselves on the line for it as well. Don't forget them.
As for the governments, well you are right they are all the same. What I would like to see is a PM put instead of appointing a Minister of Indian Affairs, appoint a group of Native elders from each Province as the 'Ministers' (for lack of a better word). No one from the outside can judge, or really know, what a people need, because they haven't............ lived it!
07-20-2013 03:39 PM
Is anyone familiar with the scenario in the book QBVII by Leon Uris? Where the Polish Dr. fees to Borneo to escape his demons after spending WWII in concentration camps.
His time in Borneo is a sidebar to the main story but as I remember he conducts experiments (medical or nutritional?) on the natives there, in certain cases I believe depriving some from treatment and providing it to others. His research in this of course fictional story leads to his being knighted in the U.K. and widely honoured, before his immoral wartime activities are finally exposed.
This book was written in the '70s. The Borneo part I presume occurs in the late 40s early 50s. I don't quite remember the story in full detail but wonder what in particular (if anything) would make make the Borneo experiments acceptable and even laudible (in Uris's mind), in comparison to the Canadian residential school experiments.
I think we also tend to forget how things were in general in the 1920s. You could easily die in Canada from such a thing as an ingrown toenail, a cut or numerous other conditions that today would be seen as absolutely minor or routine.
Other questions I would have are how the nutrition in these schools compared with other populations of underprivileged children in Canada at the time. For all I know, and for all this story tells us, these could have been among the only kids in the country receiving vitamin supplements(?).
So in this case, I think we need to be careful to consider our perspective and absolutely to demand more from journalism and researchers, in order to give us a more complete and unsensationalized account.
07-20-2013 10:29 PM
Why can't they live of the land like their ancestors? Money money money...freeloaders.
07-20-2013 11:10 PM
07-20-2013 11:25 PM
Art. these children in residential schools were taken away from their parents who many never seen again, their names changed and punished if they spoke their language or any Native rituals. Their life was cruel and if they had enough vitamins is highly debatable.
These children should not have been used as convenient guinea pigs, without their parents permission. This was a government 'experiment', the same bureaucracy that put them in the position they were forced into. Children had milk cut from their diets just to get a 'base line' for the researchers. Some children were given vitamins while others weren't.
First Nations people were hunter gatherers and farmed as well. Their health was good and they were well fed as they had been for centuries upon centuries. When the whiteman arrived they were taken off their agricultural land and into areas were hunting was scarce or totally different from their natural diet.
The most important sentence in the article is......."Instead of recommending an increase in support, the researchers decided that isolated, dependent, hungry people would be ideal subjects for tests on the effects of different diets." These were innocent children who were used like lab rats. Unacceptable in an era.
07-21-2013 10:11 AM
I don't disagree. There were many other horror stories such as locking the kids in closets and beating them if they didn't speak French, or English if that were the case.
It's just really hard to give these stories the proper consideration when they are presented so flagrantly out of context.
Seriously, how many kids in Canada received vitamin supplements in the 1920s or 30s? What were the conditions in poorhouses, workhouses, reform schools, orphanages around the country? Not to even begin to consider the evolution of mental institutions, for example. From "throw away the key to the dungeon" to CIA experiments conducted at McGill's Allan Insitute as recently as the 60s (if I remember correctly). Look at the quarantines that the Irish and other immigrants were subjected to.
How did the conditions on the reserves compare to the conditions in the residential schools? etc. etc.
The whole topic of experimentation on captive or helpless populations is sickening and abhorrent. But it brings up yet another issue. Virtually every advance in medical history has entailed experimentation on human subjects - willing or unwilling. This widespread "unwilling" participation occurs to this day, as potential treatments are constantly withheld from people for numerous reasons, including that "there is no money" in the develpment of a drug so no company will put it through clinical trials. Meanwhile, we fill our communities with prescription drug addicts. So, welcome to the 1920s, or the middle ages. We're living the dream.
Anyway, when you combine this experimentation with the underlying premise and other factors involved in the residential schools it is unacceptable, no doubt. But I would hesitate to buy into the declaration "in any era". Unless you include the proviso that probably 50-90% of all the practices in most institutions of any kind in the entire country would be unacceptable by today's standards - the "any era" part perhaps debatable.
This type of background information is rarely, if ever, provided in these stories about the residential schools. Because of that, researchers and journalists fail to provide a balanced account, with the effect that people are more reluctant to consider the information seriously.
07-21-2013 10:41 AM
appoint a group of Native elders from each Province as the 'Ministers'
A good idea. Unfortunately, the natives are human beings - no different than any non-native.
They have all the same faults and foibles that plague the rest of us.
They cannot seem to find a common ground and there are splits within the native population
that will be hard to resolve. Some want one thing - others want something else.
Neither side can seem to give a little for the common good. No different than us non-natives.
They, like us, are generally more interested in their own personal situation. As long as they
have what they want or need, they are not overly concerned with the rest.
There is an Assembly Of First Nations that is supposed to represent all natives in Canada.
There are many natives who do not like the AFN and its leader. I have read it many times,
including in this thread. There is Idle No More. This movement could have worked with AFN
or worked to create a new body that would represent ALL natives. Instead, the movement seems
to have slipped into oblivion. Oh, you hear the occasional news item, but little else of importance.
The natives may think they own all the land currently called Canada. Good luck on that one.
DNA or no DNA - the land will never go back to the natives. Too many people have too much to
lose. If a group of natives tried to take the land that I live on, they will have to fight me for it. Unless
they can change the legal system in Canada, they will never succeed in taking back the land.
Many native bands have reached agreements with the government of Canada. These are agreements
that basicly set aside treaties in favor of a financial settlements. I think the number of bands that have
settled is bout 90. These settlements have been made by the "have" bands. These bands have
something of value that they can use to create a future for their people. It is the "have-not" bands that
are suffering. The government has successfully divided the natives through these settlements.
The natives now have a smaller population base that wants and needs change. Do I blame the natives
that have settled? No. They are simply proving that they are human like the rest of us. Putting their
own needs ahead of the needs of everyone else.
Back to the beginning - appoint a group of Native elders from each Province as the 'Ministers'.
A grand idea that will be doomed by human nature.
07-21-2013 01:29 PM
A good idea…..etc etc
You are correct that all people are the same, but my point was that those who are responsible for the Native people, have never been Native. When the person in charge of a minority of people is part of ruling majority, how much real justice do you think is going to happen? None. That is the way it has been since the first European set foot on N. American soil.
There is an Assembly Of First Nations that is supposed to represent all natives in Canada…..etc etc
That also is true, the same as the representatives for all other people are suppose to represent those in small communities and Provincial and Federal and yet they disagree as well. I’ve said many times, including to Native people in person, that what they need is a strong cohesive force from coast to coast and then, Canada will have to either begin to negotiate in true good faith or go down in history for yet new atrocities.
The natives may think they own all the land currently called Canada. Good luck on that one. DNA or no DNA - the land will never go back to the natives. Too many people have too much to lose.
They do? Really? Who said that? Where have you ever read that the First Nations people want all the land and want to take it away from non-Natives? Personally I’ve never heard that, but I am sure there is probably some very angry First Nations people out there who may at times feel that way, out of pure frustration from both history and present. To broad brush the people by saying “The natives” is misleading at best.
What First Nations people do want, are settlements in longgggggg ongoing fights for Native land and treaties. They want certain land back that was unjustly taken from them. They want their land and streams on existing land unpolluted by the manufacturing done by the Federal governments approval to big corporations. In the case of BC where a majority of the land was proven to have never been relinquished by the Native people they want a Lot more say over what happens to BC land.
I’m curious puck,…..if you suddenly found out that through your family history you owned, oh lets say 10,000 acres of land…….would you fight for it? Would you fight for what is your heredity? Would you fight for justice?
Many native bands have reached agreements with the government of Canada……They are simply proving that they are human like the rest of us. Putting their own needs ahead of the needs of everyone else.
Certainly there have been land claims and other things settled between the government and the Native people, and some from the past, have been broken by the Federal governments.
You have used the phrases……. “putting their own needs ahead of the needs of everyone else” and “They, like us, are generally more interested in their own personal situation. As long as they have what they want or need, they are not overly concerned with the rest.”
You make it sound like that’s a bad thing. Do you not think that after all they have been through from genocide, to loss of children, to poverty, to being treated as second class human beings.....and the list goes on and on and on, that they deserve to think about themselves for once, since no one else cared in the past …….and the present. When someone creates anger……don’t be surprised if they get anger in return. But even with all that said, the Native people for the most part are not full of hate, they simply want justice for the past and the future.
07-21-2013 02:24 PM
Where have you ever read that the First Nations people want all the land
This is our land period.
Someone named my3dotties said it. I gather from his comments that he is native.
Maybe he doesn't speak for all natives - but he has an opinion that is shared by many of those natives that I have met/worked with.
07-21-2013 02:27 PM
I’m curious puck,…..if you suddenly found out that through your family history you owned, oh lets say 10,000 acres of land…….would you fight for it? Would you fight for what is your heredity? Would you fight for justice?
I would certainly look into it. I might take whatever legal avenues were available to me to come to some kind of settlement or agreement. If the legal avenue was a dead end, I would probably do the Canadian thing - go have a couple of beers and try to figure out how to pay my legal bills.
07-21-2013 02:35 PM
You make it sound like a bad thing.
Not a bad thing. But certainly creating an obstacle to native unity. When a band like the Osoyoos make an agreement with the government to essentially ignore the treaties - this is a detriment to the ability of the natives to negtiate as a group. When almost 90 bands have reached such agreements, it weakens unity and weakens the legitimacy of treaties overall. I personally agree with those bands who have taken the pro-active step to come to an agreement and essentially put their futures into their own hands.
The bad part is that the bands that are settling are bands that have assets that they can use to their benefit. This leaves behind the bands that essentially have nothing. They have no future under their current circumstances.
07-21-2013 02:37 PM
07-21-2013 03:02 PM
the "Canadian" type of person
Yup! Canadians are complacent. They don't rock the boat. They tend to accept whatever comes their way and live with it.
I believe you have actually made similar statements in the past. Canadians need to take a lesson from some of the other
nations around the world. We need to get "pissed off" about many of the things that our governments (all levels) do to us. We need to get our backs up and let the politicians know - in no uncertain terms - that we are not happy and this, this and this need to change.
But, alas, unless it comes to going overseas and fighting in a war, Canadians are not fighters. Maybe that means we are lovers.
07-21-2013 03:02 PM