PayPal complaint, reason: item not as described

[shooger]

I was hit by another newbie buyer - an account created solely to buy one of my BIN auctions and leave negative feedback. Probably someone who I've negged in the past, under a different account, or perhaps a seller competitor. He bought $2 worth of stuff, paid for it, and I left positive feedback. When he got it, he left 2 negative feedbacks saying "it took a month" and "item was damaged". I know that neither of those accusations is possible, because I shipped it within a couple days, and he lives within 2-3 days mailing distance from me (from Vancouver to Edmonton). He would have received it in under a week. Furthermore, the item (2 collectible cards) was shipped between two peices of cardboard, four layers of thin plastic, and five layers of normal paper. For it to be damaged it would have had to be put through a meat grinder. I've never had a card damaged in shipment, out of several thousand transactions.

So I have 2 negatives - great. I pull his contact info, and it seems to be false, so I report it. He gets NARUd. Few hours later, I get an email from PayPal.

"Claim Type:
The claim states the item received was significantly not-as-described.
The reason(s) are listed below:
The item was externally damaged"

It says my options are to refund his money (plus the $10 fee to PayPal for getting reported), or let him return the items for a full refund (plus the $10 fee to PayPal for getting reported), or refuse and give an explanation which allows PayPal to make the ruling.

I refuse to give this creep his money back and let him keep the items. I'm down to either getting him to ship them back, and refunding, or refusing altogether. I'm leaning toward refusing. If he had emailed me asking to send back the items for inspection, I would have accepted, and given a refund if they were indeed damaged in shipping (even though he didn't purchase insurance).

Has anyone else been through this kind of a chargeback? If I refund, is that admitting wrongdoing, and thereby getting a complaint added to my PayPal profile? What chances are that PayPal will rule in my favour, if I refuse the refund and explain my side? Does that fact that he has been NARUd for false contact information mean anything, or help me?

[itrecovery]

shooger,

I talking from last experince. I was charged back for on a ground 'not as described'. I lost $20 plus $10 penalty. Buyer has never returned goods and paypal didn't care about that.

I was so mad, that it makes me to write a letter to customer's local Police department. They promptly contacted thit 'new american' fellow and I got my item back in a week, futhermore he cancell his chargeback. At the end I lost only $10 original penalty, even as it was proved that I was scammed.

So, you loose either way with Paypal. Accept and Pray!

They only good news is that scammers are only 1 of 500. Nevertheless, I do not accept Paypal for high ticket items anymore and nobody complained so far.

Anatoly

[shooger]

Thanks for the replies, Randall!

Based on this, I have replied to PayPal's email and asked that the buyer return the items for a full refund.

I'll post again once things are resolved.

Thanks Randall and everyone else who gave advice and info!

[randall@ebay.com]

Buyer has never returned goods and paypal didn't care about that.

That is not really accurate. It's not that PayPal does or does not care, rather that PayPal doesn't have any control over the chargeback.

This does highlight a key benefit of the PayPal Buyer Protection (PBP)program. When a chargeback occurs it is outside of PayPal's control, and incurs additional fees. If the PBP can encourage a user to contact the seller, or seek resolution through PayPal instead of going straight to their card issuer.

Regards,
Randall
PayPal Consumer Relations

[deltone]

I didn't go for the PBP program as to me it looked like one other way to get scammed. As far as the $10 fee, there is a way to avoid that fee. I posted something about it on an earlier thread severa weeks ago. You have to change a setting in your Paypal but I'm forgetting exactly what it is but I've had a couple of chargebacks and wasn't charged the $10

[itrecovery]

deltone,

Good information, but not sure how to use it...

[itrecovery]

Randall,

Not picking on you (you are always helpful in your limits), I feel it is totally incorrect that I'm still suffering $10 loss, although it was proven that chargeack was not justified.

Paypal should charge that guy $20 for false chargeback and give $10 back to me. That will be fair.

I don't understand why CC can charge Paypal for a settlement, but Paypal can not charge CC for false chargeback.

[randall@ebay.com]

itrecovery,

I understand that it's frustrating to pay the fee, but it is a settlement fee that is coming from the issuer. Even if they agree with PayPal and overturn it they still impose the fee. It is just a part of accepting credit card payments.

Regards,
Randall
PayPal

[your-chic-shopper]

What Randall is saying is you use paypal or another service and take credit card over the net or at a store . If a charge back happens generally with other services there is a fee as well. This is just part of excepting credit cards

[deltone]

Randall, how come I've not been charged the fee? There is something the person can do (some setting) which will stop the fee. I'm forgetting what it is but I'm sure others would like to know!!

[shooger]

"you did in fact receive an email stating that you had a chargeback"

I'm not saying that I receive an email stating that a customer was applying for a chargeback. Your first statement said that you looked at the emails sent to me a few days ago, and didn't see any mention of the $10 fee. My reply was that they didn't mention the $10 fee during my last chargeback experience either - but that didn't stop the fee from happening! So I wouldn't be surprised to see it again, even though the chargeback email again did not say "you're gonna get dinged $10 cuz of this!"

"You have to change a setting in your Paypal but I'm forgetting exactly what it is but I've had a couple of chargebacks and wasn't charged the $10."

Good Lord, if that's true, let us all in on the secret! LOL! What's the setting called? Check this box if you like getting screwed?!?

"I understand that it's frustrating to pay the fee... It is just a part of accepting credit card payments."

Paying $0.30 USD plus 3% of every payment accepted is ALSO a part of accepting credit card payments. I was under the assumption that shelling out money to PayPal so that we could accept credit cards would compensate PayPal enough. I've given PayPal two or three thousand US dollars in the last year so that I can accept credit card payments, and only had one $10 chargeback. It was sucked involuntarily out of my PayPal account.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Update: At the same time as I sent the email reply to PayPal, letting them know I had decided to refund the payment once the buyer returns the items, I got an email from PayPal titled "Resolution of Claim". I found it pretty odd, considering I hadn't made my decision yet, and it had only been 2 days (they said I had 10 to decide).

Our investigation has concluded in the buyer's favor. The buyer is due a refund. PayPal Buyer Protection has initiated a refund to the buyer on your behalf. The case will be closed once the refund is processed (which may take up to 5 business days). No funds will be taken from your account to complete this refund.

I don't understand how a decision was made without my input. I'm a little upset that the scammer "wins" now, because he not only screwed me with negative feedback, but he got the cards for free. The only good part was that I got to keep the $4 because PayPal is the one giving the guy back the money. I've been deemed at fault, which sucks for my record. I wish this guy had never found me. I'd rather have a clean record and 2 less negative feedbacks 😞

[amberwoodottawa]

shooger
Take this up with Randall and maybe he can assist.

Clearly there is a learning curve here and I dont know how PayPal could make a determination about guilt without your participation. Nor do I understand how the could allow the buyer to keep the merchandise and obtain a refund.

What concerns me is that if PayPal rules the Seller must give a refund without the return of what was sold. In your case, a couple of cars worth $2 however in my case it could be a $500-$700 set of drums.

Clearly if that is what PayPal has suggested there is a serious problem in how PayPal has communicated this with you and the buyer/scam artist and I doubt that Randall's understanding and PayPal's position would support the seller being out the product and the money.

Malcolm

[randall@ebay.com]

shooger,

Paying $0.30 USD plus 3% of every payment accepted is ALSO a part of accepting credit card payments. I was under the assumption that shelling out money to PayPal so that we could accept credit cards would compensate PayPal enough.

If you opted to accept card payments through a standard merchant account you would still incur a % fee along with a per transaction fee. You would also be responsible for a chargeback settlement fee on any chargebacks filed against you.

Regards,
Randall
PayPal Consumer Relations

[shooger]

"Clearly there is a learning curve here and I dont know how PayPal could make a determination about guilt without your participation."

I didn't even have to ask Randall - he emailed me today to let me know that the PBP people decided to close the matter on their own because it was for such a small amount, and that I won't be held responsible in any way. Thanks Randall!

"You would also be responsible for a chargeback settlement fee on any chargebacks filed against you."

Wow, those credit card companies are brutal overlords.

Well, I've learned a few things here today. Thanks everybody for the help and advice. The scammer got to keep the items and got his money back, and he got to negg me (which was why he bought from me in the first place). I see he has got himself un-NARUd, which is unfortunate for me. He's blocked from buying from me, or course.

[randall@ebay.com]

shooger,

Wow, those credit card companies are brutal overlords.

I'm not sure I would say that. I just think that most people who haven't operated a merchant account don't really know all of what accepting card payments entails. For many of you PayPal is your first exposure to the risks/rewards/costs of accepting credit card funded payments.

I'm working with some groups to focus more of the messaging on educating users who are not familiar with this.

Regards,
Randall
PayPal

[shooger]

Just an update to this...

Since receiving notification that PayPal would be picking up the entire ($4) bill on this, nothing has been done. The buyer/scammer is still waiting to get his money back, and I'm still waiting for the little red box in the upper left hand side of my PayPal screen to go away. When I check the complaint details section, it says the status is "refund pending". I think it has been about a month now. I can't change my account in any way while I have an "ongoing dispute" and it's getting rather inconvenient. Also, having an unresolved dispute is something that tarnishes your record and can possible get your account closed or frozen. I'd love it if someone at PayPal would click a button to send this through...

[rd1000]

Paypal could go a long ways to improving their reputation if they would stop this shameful practice of freezing your entire account because someone has claimed they did not get their product. If there is $20.00 in dispute, then $20.00 should be frozen until it is resolved. Freezing all your money, including any new deposits that come it, is abusive in my opinion. And it is my understanding that the authorities are looking into this very practice.

I transfer the funds out of my account every chance I get. It is free if you have a US dollar account. You have to protect yourself as best you can.

[shooger]

Actually, it's not free unless you have a US dollar account IN THE USA as far as I understand it. I asked them if I opened a US funds account here in Canada would they charge fees, and they said yes. So I have a RBC Centura account (they are based out of NC and FL) which I transfer my funds into whenever they go above $500. But right now, I'm kind of hooped, waiting for this "complaint" to get off my screen. It originated 2 months ago, and was settled a month ago... but it remains. I'd be happy to pay the scammer his $4 back (instead of waiting for PayPal to get around to doing it) if that would make things stop being screwed up. My account isn't working properly and isn't full-featured while there's an "ongoing" dispute.

Randall, could YOU click the button for me, please?

[rd1000]

I am pretty sure if you just give them the money they will fix your account very fast. I feel for you. I have been there. It messes up the entire rhythm of your business.

They freeze the entire account so you have no choice but to give in quickly.

[randall@ebay.com]

shooger,

When I checked your account I didn't see any limitations. Can you please email me directly with the specifics and I'll pass it along to my associate.

Also, I feel it's important to highlight that PayPal typically puts a hold on the transaction in dispute and not the entire account. That was done years ago, but was changed in 2001. Certain other factors can contribute, but as I said typically only the individual payment is held.

-Randall

[rd1000]

HI Randall,

I had a hold on my account last summer for $150.00 and the entire account was frozen. Payments still came in, but I could not withdraw from, purchase from, or use my debit card until I sent permission to take the money. It was a lot more than $150.00 and the balance was inceasing daily with new deposits that I could not access.

Rob