Shipping scam?

[hotrod2020ca]

With some items the shipping charges are higher than the sale price of the auctioned item, and the sellers keep re-listing so they are happy with the resulting sale.  There are many sellers offering the same item so getting a good price isn't surprising. 

However if they (the Seller) then send the wrong item to the customer, the customer can't get a refund unless they ship it back by a tracked shipping method, again, more than the 'cost' of the sale.

It seems that the Seller is now able to pay their shipper (or other?) with your Paypal account without further input or notice from/to you, so your Paypal statement will read (for example) $8.50 to Seller and $12.85 to (3rd Party).  ($21.35 being a good but not unreasonably good price for the item in the original sale.)

First, why are they allowed to assign part of my payment to them to a 3rd party (the shipper/his agent or other)?

Second, when/if there is a dispute you can only ask for the $8.50 from the seller, again why?

Third, when/if seller sends junk in place of claimed item, Buyer must pay for tracked shipping of said junk back to shipper (if asked, which he will).  If shipped item was junk why does injured party (defrauded buyer) have to pay $12.85 (assuming that really is shipping cost, which is unlikely) to get back $8.50?

Finally, we now have a dispute with (3rd party) who is probably a big legitimate company (or not) who may (or may not) have benefited or provided incentives to (Seller).  3rd party can claim non-affiliation and Paypal may still pay you through their guarantee (up to 3 events over a period of time) but this should not have been the Buyer's concern at all, that contract was with the Seller.  These events go on your Paypal account permanently.

I am seeing many items with the potential for this kind of abuse, but the most glaring concern I would like Ebay to address, is involving a 3rd party in the sale.  Does anyone know if this has been going on for long?  I saw one feedback about a 'shipping scammer' but didn't know what they meant (but didn't buy there anyway) and it was only recent.

Sorry for the lack of details/generic wording, but naming on this board seems to be censored and isn't really my first concern.

Thanks for your time, consideration &/or comments.  If anyone official wants to get back to me privately or here they are welcome to as well. 

HR

[hotrod2020ca]

Another potential scam is non-shipped items claimed lost in mail w/o tracking #, Seller gives refund if Promised 5* feedback only. (Personally I don't make that promise, even if I get 15 email from that seller later asking me to remove that feedback. It was true & factual, I even sent him a copy of his letter claiming I had 60 days to open a dispute and to give more time. (the email are still coming in weekly) But there is no cure for that as far as I know except to leave neg. feedback and perhaps lose your money if you trusted.

[hotrod2020ca]

Oh, and a quick aside, the $12.85 shipping was for a 2 hour drive from my house to shipper's location. (Not in US as they claimed in the original ad, but Canada, same as me.) This further muddies the waters for any hope of a clean solution.

[afantiques]

You appear to be referring to items sold using the Global shipping program. This accounts for the split payments.

I suggest you familiarise yourself with the GSP.

[hotrod2020ca]

From the 4 full threads on the subject I suspect that will take awhile. I don't see why GSP was involved for a shipment from within Canada, to a Canadian address less than 2 hours away. (Though the seller claimed they were US based) and for 12.95 for a 5 dollar, 1oz package is insane. Seriously, I could have driven there and picked it up cheaper even at today's gas prices. Do you know why a seller would ship junk through this program?

[pierrelebel]

"I don't see why GSP was involved for a shipment from within Canada, to a Canadian address less than 2 hours away."

GSP should not be involved in a transaction within Canada.

What is the listing number?

[hotrod2020ca]

171340305428 I think.

Listing says the item is (was) in the USA, but the item was mailed and postmarked from down the road.

No problems with either refund, possibly panicking over nothing.  I don't like having to deal with a third party I did not authorize access to my paypal payment though.  I am only on page 8 of the GSP thread.  Does anyone official ever explain it?  

If it helps the sellers, and they are happy with it, fine.  But, I don't like surprises like PBInc showing up with charges on my account that I can't explain except by combining with another authorized but undercharged transaction.  Users have to keep track of their own PayPal account against misuse, this does not help...  It is hard enough sometimes tracking a (for instance) Kanji name from an Ebay account to your Paypal account.

HR

[pierrelebel]

"but the item was mailed and postmarked from down the road."

Do you see a Canadian return address on the package?

As far as authorization, yes when you placed your bid or buy-it-now you agreed to both the selling price and the shipping charge.

For American sellers using GSP, the shipping charge (and taxes if applicable) is charged to the buyers PayPal account by Pitney-Bowes, not the seller directly.

The shipping charge is disclosed on the listing.

I suspect the parcel was correctly shipped by the seller to Pitney-Bowes who brought the parcel to Canada and then mailed it to you from one of their Canadian locations.

On the other hand, eBay does not recommend for American sellers to use GSP for items selling on average below $50.

[hotrod2020ca]

I did agree to the shipping charge, but I authorized the seller to take it and deal with the shipping.  I was happy with the product at the combined price + shipping (IF it was what was advertised, and not a fake).

Please note I was NOT disputing the charge (no matter how ridiculous), but the fact that someone other than the seller was paid directly with my information, and whom I now have to go after for the balance of the refund.

The return address is indeed the address I was referring to.  The seller says he paid $1.28 in shipping, PBI charged me $12.85 (US) for sending me the product from a location 2 hours away by car (less if you have a heavy foot) within Canada. . .

[hotrod2020ca]

My point about the absurd shipping is more that I am sad on the seller's behalf for being ripped off when they should have been making most of that sale themselves instead of paying PB more than the cost of the item, shipping, duties, tariffs, and packaging combined. (of course since the item was not worth anything in this case at least I don't have to try to claim tariffs back from Canada Customs... X) )

[pierrelebel]

"I don't have to try to claim tariffs back from Canada Customs"

???

There was no duty nor tax paid to Canada Customs. This only applies for goods valued at more than Cdn$ 20.00

The sellers shipping charge was to Pitney-Bowes distribution centre in the USA (Kentucky).

The shipping charge to and within Canada is what PB charged you. 

We all know cost of shipping within Canada has little to do with distance traveled.  A parcel mailed across town may cost $8 and $12 to the other side of the country.

[hotrod2020ca]

Sorry Pierrelebel, but if you can't answer at least one of the questions in the OP I am done explaining. The item would have been over $20 if PB had not been involved, but that is not relevant to anything, just an idle observation.

Thank you to afantiques that was at least somewhat useful. It is my first encounter with 3rd parties being involved with an ebay purchase, I think I'll stick to chinese sellers in the future (even if they too list the product as being in the USA).

[afantiques]

PBI charged me $12.85 (US) for sending me the product from a location 2 hours away by car (less if you have a heavy foot) within Canada. . .

Your item was sent from Kentucky to you, not from a Canadian post office to you, although it was sent Via a Canadian postal depot.

[hotrod2020ca]

After peeling off several stickers the original seller's address was found so despite fake item arriving in incredibly fast time it did indeed come from the USA (Congratulations...).

I still feel I should have been expressly informed that a third party (even or especially one owned by Ebay!) was going to be involved in this transaction. The Calculate button on some listings does not work (Fails to recognize postal codes) and I have managed to avoid GSP so long because I refuse to buy not knowing the total price.

As other users have pointed out: "One last thing: from various accounts, it seems very difficult to recover the GSP portion of the fees when an item arrives damaged or not as described or when it doesn't arrive at all. This is something that needs to be fixed and it wouldn't happen with a well-run program."
This is why the 3rd party business makes a difference. (and if Ebay owns this program, why is it labeled PBInc. and treated differently?)

[afantiques]

Sorry Pierrelebel, but if you can't answer at least one of the questions in the OP I am done explaining.

There were no answerable questions in the OP, just a set of fuzzy and incorrect assumptions about what was happening. Sincere attempts have been made to explain how GSP items are shipped and charged for, which seem to have gone over your head, due to your idee fixee that the item was sent from within Canada.

It is vague, but it seems you are complaining that you got the wrong item. Seller fault returns are so problematic with GSP sales that the usual advice is to simply say the item arrived broken.  Under the GSP there will be no refunds from PB of shipping or import charges if the item is returned to the seller.

[reallynicestamps]

but I authorized the seller to take it and deal with the shipping

And the seller did exactly that.

She shipped using the Global Shipping Program as directed by the program.

She subcontracted.

She shipped with Delivery Confirmation tothe Pitney Bowes plant in Kentucky using the first (domestic) shipping charge. PB, who recieved the GSP portion of the shipping charges used that money to ship from the USA to Canada where they subcontracted to a Canadian shipper, usually either Canada Post or CanPar.

Any Canadian duty or sales tax owing was disbursed to the Canadian government by PB as part of this service. Any leftover money (which usually seems to be about $5) they keep to cover their own costs and profits.

So all the costs of transport were covered.

All the taxes and applicable duty were covered.

And you recieved the parcel, and since you don't have any comment about it, you recieved it promptly and securely.

And dont' get upset about the sub-contracting. The only way your US shipper could get the item to you without sub-contracting would be to drive up to Canada herself and hand it to you.

[reallynicestamps]

It is vague, but it seems you are complaining that you got the wrong item.

Hmm. that could be the real problem.

OP. if it is, just open an Item Not As Described dispute. PB will refund your money in full, including shipping and will not ask you to return anything to anyone.

Which is a lot of scams waiting to happen, but of course that is not your concern.

[afantiques]

I still feel I should have been expressly informed that a third party (even or especially one owned by Ebay!) was going to be involved in this transaction.

GSP items all have a link to an explanation of the GSP process. Horses to water, in this case. And many others.  to be fair.

it seems very difficult to recover the GSP portion of the fees when an item arrives damaged or not as described or when it doesn't arrive at all.

In practice it seems that in the case of damaged items, the refund process is better than usual as you do not have to return the damaged item, and missing items get full refunds pretty easily as well. Only seller fault returns are a real mess.

You do have to do the formal Paypal claim procedure, though. Problems with missing or damaged items that have happened have often been traceable to muddled attempts by buyer and seller to resolve it between themselves.

By far the biggest of many drawbacks of this program are the mountains of ignorance shared by buyers and sellers using it.

[hotrod2020ca]

Yes, having the program unwittingly thrust upon you will do that (cause mountains of ignorance to fall everywhere).

In the original post I asked why a 3rd party was paid with my account.  I had agreed to pay the seller $X, not Seller $Y and 3rd party $Z even if Y+Z=X.   A link to "GSP" in no way informs you of a new party to the transaction unless it is made clear that the GSP IS A SEPARATE ENTITY.

Surprisingly, in this case the seller did not make me ship back the item via tracked postal method so this case was resolved.

 If the seller had asked for it shipped back with a tracking # at my expense (as he was entitled to according to Ebay's policies) I would have been out of pocket for more than the cost (before shipping) of the item even if it had been the item it claimed to be, and getting a refund from PB in that case without the seller's help could be a problem (*PayPal does not guarantee refunds on straight shipping charges, after all the shipper did what they were paid to in full, the fact that it was a fake is not the shipper's fault).

Does that explain why adding a 3rd party without clearly itemizing the receipt causes me concern?

With almost 4000 posts in the GSP questions thread I am having trouble finding any answers.  I do not feel my questions were vague,  I want to know why a 3rd party became involved in my transaction without explicit permission.

 Do you see the difference between paying someone $50 for a delivered item and paying $30 to one person with $20 to another?  I'm sure you do, the second involves two contracts for goods or services, while the first is a straightforward one.  When all parties are honest it doesn't make a difference (even if buyer and seller are being gouged, since they agree to it).  However in the case of a return (*for any reason) there is a difference in entitlements.  

[hotrod2020ca]

The 2nd point in the OP was that "When you ask for a refund, you cannot ask for a full refund, only the portion the seller actually received." It does not explain any way of asking for the rest of your money back. This immediately sent me to PayPal where I found PBInc's name for the first time.