The Official Canadian PS Politics Thread

[lynxamania]

Since the US PS Forums have it I decided we should start a thread discussing politics here in Canada and abroad. Let me know if we can keep this thread going!

[rd1000]

It's interesting, isn't it. Unions were formed to protect the workers, and now workers are scared of the unions. I think it says a lot. Like maybe unions need a good, hard second look at their usefulness.

Rob

[shoplineca]

I have a great idea, lets form a union for unionized employees. We will solicit teachers to join our union to fight with their unions over matters that dont represent the majority of members or when fear is a factor for them having to participate.

Then when a union calls for a teacher's strike, our union will call a strike and work instead of being on a picket line.

Actually, we need a government to stand up to the unions much like the US did over air traffic controllers. Laid them all off and brought in the army and then started a hiring of new air traffic controllers.

What a great message that sent throughout the US.

Problem with McGuinty is he supports teachers strikes. His wife is a teacher and he walked the picket line when the Conservatives were in power and they had a strike about 7 years ago.

Isnt it convenient also that teachers dont strike during the summer? They strike near the end of school so that kids loose a year's education or at the beginning so that they cant start a new year.

Glenda, I lived in BC for several years back in the mid 1970s and the strength of the unions there was mind boggling.

I worked at Guaranty Trust for $580 per month when a friend of mine, attending BCU worked 2 nights and Saturday at a grocery store stocking shelves bringing in about $1,500 per month.

Reaal incentive to get an education and have a job with lots of responsibility. I mean my freind gets his degree and then lands an office job at 1/3 what he maked part-time in a grocery store.

Malcolm

[barriemetals]

A union against unions! Now that is just what we need. (kidding)

One of my pet peeves is when people who deserve more don't get it and even worse is when people who don't deserve get more. This is the case with alot of union Manufacturing "line" jobs. Because of unions a person who may or may not have finished High school is making $16.00+ an hour to do the job and getting a raise every 6 months or so. While in the meantime a college graduate is making $10.00/h in an office relying on promotions to get ahead. Sure down the road the College student may make more but thats talking 10-20years later. The worst part is that tradesman can be working in the same factory as the labourer and making about the same (maybe $2.00/h more). I do not see how 5 years of apprenticeship and schooling amounts to $2.00/h. This is capitalism at it's most chaotic.
On the flipside it is better than communism.

Barriemetals

[sunset_sports_cards]

I am a tradesman in a Major pulp and paper company, and belong to a Union. Although I do not always agree with what they do I still support them...to a degree. My hourly wage as a Journeyman Millwright is one of the lowest in industry. I gave up $400/month operations labourer job to take an apprenticeship and become interprovincially certified. I gave that up over four years...about $20,000. My hourly rate has increased from the previous job by about $4/hr. Which really is diddly with the COL the way it is. Our union has not been able to bring it "inline" with the average tradesmen rate in Canada for some reason. Unions have had their place once upon a time, but times are changing in such they should be kept around for damage control.

[rd1000]

Ahh...but the difference is that you are in a private company. You see, taxpayer dollars are plentiful. THere is lots to go around. Your company, on the other hand, has a bottom line that has to be accounted for. Give and take.

Taxpayer dollars are all aboout take.

Rob

[shoplineca]

sunset_sports_cards
I spent a decade with Eddy Forest Products and owned my own large paper converting operation in the US. The way Eddy Paper settled with unions was a joke, however typical of the industry.

The largest of the paper, pulp nad lumber companies would first settle with the union where the largest potential battles would take place. After that, aside from some small discussions, every other mill that followed accepted what the largest mill negotiated with the union.

Standards set in the mills between management and the unions was a real joke. Workers would work at a pace considerably less than normal to set the mill standard and after that as long as everone met that standard, they were doing their job.

I could never work in a union environment, primarily for the reasons that Glenda raised. To see mediocre employees receiving the same increase in benefits and wages as star performers. Where lies the incentive for outperforming your peers or exceeding the standards if you are to receive the same as what everyone else gets at the end of the day?

I have been witness to people who ate and drank together and enjoyed playing the ocassional game of cards until a strike was called. Those same unionized friends could be found with clubs raised threatening the safety of their non-unionized friends who were trying to go to their office jobs but needing to cross the picket lines.

I've seen auto workers so riled up on Parliament Hill that you wonder how they let these people out of jail because half of them act like mass murderers.

I've seen civil servants blocking access to public buildings and bashing on the hoods of people's personal cars.

... and we, the public are supposed to appreciate and understand these acts that under other circumstances would be classified as criminal offenses?

The unions have become an industry unto themselves, more powerful in fact than the companies and industries their members represent.

sunset_sports_cards, as I am certain you are aware, Unions dont represent all members, they represent the majority of members and should a small group of people in a union have a grievance which is of no interest to the Union, you have less say than you would had you not been a member of a union, but had the ability to discuss it directly with management.

We are fast loosing grip on this country because we have allowed it to happen. Perhaps our "New Canadians" will shape it better than we have been treating it over the last quarter century.

Malcolm

[sunset_sports_cards]

Well said Malcolm!
"Where lies the incentive for outperforming your peers or exceeding the standards if you are to receive the same as what everyone else gets at the end of the day?"

The union will never give any incentive for it's own members to outperform. That is as sure as death and taxes. I believe the company should give performance incentives to their employees. Let's face it...with out the good employees doing a good job they wouldn't make money. As far as lazy unionized employees receiving the same money and benefits, I don't like it one bit! But that said...they pay union dues like I do and therefore are entitled to what I would get. Like I said before the union had it's place 50-60 years ago. They, in my opinion formed the basis for workers unionized and non-unionized alike to receive the benefits and wages we do get nowadays.

[shoplineca]

I agree that Unions were very much needed to change the way factories and many other types of businesses ran, treating employees like dirt. They are needed in many 3rd world countries right now.

But like everything else, running a union is like running a business and Unions employ measures which are unfair to their members and the companies that employ the members in order for them to survive.

With a union comes strength in numbers but a loss of individuality. If you have a need from your employer, there is an excellent chance the union wont represent you and that specific need unless it is something that can be converted to the good of the majority of the union members.

I recall working at the Royal Bank when a Western Cdn branch became unionized. The bank offered the union the same 19% increase as was being given to all bank employees that year but the union rejected it and said it wanted to negotiate better for its members.

Well a full year later and the union didnt approach the bank and it was time for the bank to give out another "across the board" raise except for that one branch. This time we got 15%.

Within 2 months, the branch employees made an application to the government to be de-certified and the bank gave all staff raises retroactive to day one, even though they didnt have to.

The unions can take responsibility for many retail clerks only getting part-time hours in order for their employers to avoid having to pay benefits and the same goes for many other places.

So what has been happening over the last 15 or so years is a depletion of benefits for unionized employees through reduced working hours by the companies. With many companies they are called shut downs, where it is financially less expensive to completely shut down manufacturing for a few months than to reduce staff and run smaller production lines.

Anyway, I think that unions will have their day when the union members decide it is time to call it quits and not much before. Our governments dont have the will to legislate back to work policy on many essential services as quickly as they should (teachers, civil servants etc.).

Its time for the people to take charge of their own destiny as our various levels of governments all seem to fall on their a$$e$ and do nothing more than line their own pockets.

Malcolm

[rd1000]

Thank you Mr. Dryden, for saving my family. I have a two year old and a six year old. I had no idea of the damage we were inflicting on our children.

I hope my children will be able to forgive me. Until you passed on your wordly knowledge, I did not realize that a stay at home parent was a "mediocre way to raise a child". Did they teach you that in hockey school sir?

And thank you Mr.Dryden. Thanks to your insight, I now know that all this time my wife has been fooling me. She has been telling me that she wants to stay home because she WANTS to raise our children. She wants to teach them. She wants to spend time with them. And all along, the real reason she wants to stay at home is guilt. Well no more. THank you sir. I am getting her the want ads as soon as I finish this letter.

I am so happy you and your party know what is best for our children. I know now that my children are best in the hands of goverment run institutions from birth. YOu have done such a great job managing health care, it only makes sense that you should be able to care for our children. And your record of fiscal responsibility compared to mine is proof that my money is far better off in your hands. What was I thinking. Thank you sir, for opening my eyes.

I just hope it is not too late for my kids.

Sincerely,

Rob

[rd1000]

I am just curious - what is everyone going to do with their extra $16.00 next year in income tax savings?

I am thinking about saving mine for 2 years and buying a case of beer.

Anybody else?

[shoplineca]

Donating mine to eBay, they need it so badly they are willing to loose Power Sellers over increased fees.

Rob, If you save your's for 2 years and earn interest on the savings, you will be taxed too high to afford a case of beer.

Actually, why not donate it to the Conservative Party so they can find a real leader to provide some decent opposition and maybe eventual leadership?

Your Mr. Flip Flop is now against Canada participating in the US missile defense program just like Mr. Dithers because of public opinion polls.

On the other hand, do you have a $4 billion "Rainy Day" savings account? I guess all Canadians should have one.

Maybe if we stop paying taxes and put our money into a trust account called "My Rainy Day Savings Account" we wont get into trouble with Revenue Canada since the government is overtaxing us and then calling it savings.

How about Ontario Hydro? They overcharged us so we are getting $100 rebate. How long would we last in business if we overcharged our customers and then go back to them a year later and refund them a portion of the extra money we took

Mexico is looking better and better as a place to move to. At least there you know who the bad guys are because they carry guns outside of their jackets.

Malcolm

[realbugs]

Intersting, very interesting...So, Malcolm, when will you run so I can vote for you? ;0)

Toni

[shoplineca]

We need a new Canadian Party, not one made up from left-overs from other older parties or wannabe parties.

Fresh leadership, fresh ideas and not afraid to loose an election because of being consistent and laying out a path that may not be popular but is for the benefit of Canadians as a whole.

Revamp medical system into a 2-tier program, cut down government services by elimination of programs government has no business being in including the CBC.

Reduce taxes through flat tax rates and implementation of new creative tax deductions for corporations to replace former government funded programs such as in the arts, cultures etc.

My list of what needs to be done goes on and on but would take no more than 18 months for a complete change. A real shake up resulting in short-term pain and long-term gain and end the hypocrisy, the waste, insider theft, political favouritism, overspending and put more money into everyone's pockets at the end of the year with more innovative companies taking charge and small businesses being able to flourish without being burdened down in paperwork.

Bye Bye gun registry! Bye Bye refugee quotas! Hello Fast Tracking foreign doctors and nurses! Hello Fast Tracking legal hearings through creation of lawyer panels acting as judges (a requirment for all lawyers to sit on the bench for 2-3 weeks per year with 2 other lawyers having the same power as a single judge).

Of would I love the chance to turn this blessed country around!

Malcolm

[rd1000]

The Conservatives get no more of my money. Harper's endorsement of budget 2005 - 2010 is enough to make me vomit.

I always said I would never grow old in this country, but after the whopping 39 cents a month increase in Old Age Security, maybe I will stick around so I can get some of my money back.

Next time Revenue Canada comes looking for income records, I think I will tell them all my money is in a trust fund and can't be audited. But not to worry, in the words of Mr.Dithers..."trust me".

The rebate from Ontario Hydro is just to placate us saps for when we open our May hydro bills and see the whopping new McGinty rate for electricity.

The marijuana party is looking good.

Rob

[shoplineca]

Rob
I told you he is not a leader. He is a wimp and if the Conservatives dont smarten up and get themselves a real tough a$$ visionary that is not afraid to make changes that are needed, we will continue existing but not prospering as we should be.

There are no words for McGinty. Do you know what a raise in Hydro rates is in reality? Another tax hike. If the government owns and operates it and charges for it, it is a tax and if the rates go up, it is a tax hike.

Whether through inefficiencies or misuse, previous debt or whatever, any cost charged by a government is a tax for the service and any increase cost charged is a tax hike.

... and dont get too caught up in listening to and believing Lowell Green. While shovelling all the crap of how conservative he is every morning, its all BS talk and in reality he lives a liberal's lifestyle.

He is just pi$$ed off with them because when he was a card carrying member, they didnt want him to run for them.

As much as I enjoy the contraversy of his show, I would hate to have a guy like that running anything more than his morning radio talk show.

Malcolm

[rd1000]

I would like to know what McGinty is doing with all this new money he is collecting. I fear he is taking a card from the Federal Liberals deck and is stashing a few billion away for the next election.

I have a lot of respect for Lowell Green. He is one of the few in the media that cuts through the crap and gets to the truth of the matter. Diane Francis is another. Greg Weston is another one too.

Lowell a Liberal? I don't think I could ever call him a Liberal. He has principles. I would love to see him in the house of commons, but I am glad he stayed on the radio.

Rob

[shoplineca]

Rob,
... and by most of my comments you wouldnt take me for a Liberal either.

That's because Conservatives have resorted to what their opinion of what a Liberal is, what they look like, sound like etc. while their party hangs as much to the left as it does to the right no longer having any real definition of where they should collectively be on any issue.

The sad fact remains that those in power today, being Liberals, are the closest thing there is to be capable of running a government.

I seriously doubt that Harper could have passed a budget from a minority Conservative government that would have all parties supporting it.

Is that important? Probably as we dont need another election which would result in the same as we have today, a Liberal minority government or possibly a majority this time.

I am all for change if it was to be positive but never for change for the sake of change.

I would welcome a strong opposition with strong leadership from a Conservative party and would welcome them as a new government if they provided this country with a well laid out plan for a positive future of growth and prosperity while supporting the basic needs of Canadians.

The only true opposition is a party whose sole intent is to support an independant Quebec. They maintain their position on all issues without inside fighting and diagreements, no flip flopping on policy and they work fairly well with their Provincial Party that just happens to be Liberal.

Just the same, Mexico is still looking like a great place to retire to (and probably the only thing that I can afford).

Malcolm

[barriemetals]

I am very surprised that we have not had another election called yet. The parties seem to be waiting for something big enough to come up as to grab enough attention or take a definitive side.
Most people will say that these politcos will not take a side and all give the same statements in a different way.
As you say Malcolm the only opposition is from the Bloc who does maintain a solid agenda amid other issues. This raises the question; If another party were to emerge with a very different view on how to run the country would that force the other parties to change their platform in order to keep those votes?
The age old question every election day has been well "I picked the best of the worst." Well if this "new" party were to spice it up a bit and throw around taboo ideas they obviously would not get elected by us conservative Canadians. However it would get the ideas out there and maybe make the voters rethink where the issues really are.
Maybe I'm right maybe I'm wrong but national policy change in any modern country either comes slowly or very quickly. It all depends on how long the populace can wait.

Steve

[rd1000]

HI Steve,

Personally I think the last thing we need is another party. It is because of all the votes being spread amongst 5 parties now that we have the Liberals, and now it seems the Conservatives, adopting this middle of the road "lets not do anything so as not to offend anyone" type of governing. We see it in the government and in the opposition (aka Conservatives).

The block is not a federal party. There are a provincial party in federal seats. They have one agenda - more money and power for Quebec. I am surprised Alberta has not established a "Federal" party yet.

I say we need less parties. I miss the Right vs the Left battle for government, where we had a real choice to make based on ideology. Now all we have is a battle for the right to sit on top of the fence.

For the first time in my life, I am actually starting to find Canadian politics boring. I find myself hardly paying attention anymore. I couldn't even stomach watching more than a few hours of the Liberal convention. It was just a bunch of chest-pounding, hugging and back slapping. No policy, no guts, no nothing.

I fear the Conservative one will be just as superficial.

Stephen Harper will not force an election because the Liberals will likely win a majority. His hands are tied. All he can do is wait for the Gomery inquiry to finish (if it gets the chance) and hope that enough Canadians get angry over the theft of our money.

Rob

[shoplineca]

Rob
You are right on with most of those comments.

With the budget now before Parliament, it passed yesterday with Harper's support and will pass the next 2 readings today with his support again. The 2 reasons are he supports much of what is in it and he doesnt want another election.

An election call would seal the Conservative's future as either opposition or worse, falling behind the NDP and possibly/likely result in a Liberal majority with the Liberals taking extra seats from the Bloc and from Liberals who voted Conservative last election and are not pleased with Harper.

Even Lowell Green has been expressing deep disatisfaction with Harper recently, referring to him as too much of a family man to give what it takes to lead a Party let alone a country.

I also think that there are some surprises coming forward about our increased participation with the US through Norad and other agencies in absence of signing the Missile Program Agreement.

I am very confident that these matters had been discussed between Martin and Bush in depth previously and are underway right now without any animosity between the governments for our not signing into the missile agreement.

As for a Western party out of Alberta, I thought that was what the Reform Party was, a Western Grass Roots Conservative Party led by the least likely of what one would expect as a leader.

With a squeeky voice, over-sized glasses, weekly frame, and some accidental comedic phrases, he took nothing and turned it into an oppostion in a historicly short span of time that wracked havoc with the old Conservative party. Combine that with Mulroney's fiascos and a major new party was here to stay (or was it)?

No it wasnt. It took greed, old Conservative type politics, lust for power and back room deals that took over and killed that party and created another Liberal-like party, only with a much weaker leader with no vision for the country, only a vision to become leader of the country.

I dont think the country needs another party. I think we need another visionary, a true leader to take this beautiful land with all its resources and wealth of diversity in its peoples and give the majority of Canadians a rejuvinated sense of pride and anticipation of our destiny.

I believe that the Conservatives and Liberals of today will only manage the country but that is not good enough. We need to grow, to expand our horizons, anticipate challenges from International competitors and prosper.

... and no the NDP is not the alternative. They have their place and that is in downtown Toronto.

Malcolm