US seller ships bootleg dvd box set, but doesn't want to pay shipping return.

[fh991586]

Hello there,

First time that I received a bootleg item unknowingly.  The item was listed "As new", and the US seller has more than 4000 good feedback with a 100% rate.  He claims he didn't notice the image compression when he screened some of the dvds, nor the lower print quality of packaging on the box & each dvd cases (moiré pattern, letters with a light blurred outline instead of clean sharp print, etc.).  I have some dvds from this serie to use as proof to compare both items, and I have enough printing experience & knowledge on dvd/cd to spot a fraudulent production.

I believe the seller when he tells me he didn't know that it's a bootleg, and he states that he bought it from somebody else on eBay.  But he doesn't seem to want to refund me the return shipping for the item if I send it back (his terms on page states buyer is responsible for return shipping).  I clearly would not have bought it if I had known this was not an official release, so I don't think I should lose money over this transaction.

The case has not been escalated trhough eBay yet, since I only exchange message through the "question to seller" formula in My Ebay.  I'm waiting for his final decision over complete refund + return shipping...

My question is: what are my options now?  I've never had to deal with such a bad experience before!

[I enclosed an image example of the boxset]

[pierrelebel]

Your options?

First is to wait for the seller to confirm his policy regarding return shipping cost.

If the seller decides that you must pay return shipping cost, advise him that you will file a claim with eBay/PayPal for "goods not as described".  eBay does not allow listing and sale of contraband.  Give him two more days to change his mind regarding the return shipping charge.  You may emphasize that as a buyer you should not have to be out-of-pocket for his mistake (yes it was his mistake of purchasing contraband goods and pass them on to buyers).

Now, what will eBay/PayPal do?  Hard to tell. They may or may not require that you return the ALLY McBEAL COMPLETE SERIES.  On the other hand,  it is technically illegal for you to export these contraband items in the mail to the USA.  They may get confiscated at US Customs! You may want to explain that to the seller and shift the responsibility on him.

The ideal solution is for the seller to reimburse you the full amount of the transaction (selling price and shipping) and for you to destroy the set.  It was his mistake after all.

Whatever you do in your communications with the seller, I suggest you avoid mentioning feedback and DSRs at this time. 

I would also invite the seller to this thread.  Allow him the courtesy to express his perspective.

If you check eBay's help pages, here is what you get:

Here's what we found for "Received a counterfeit or fake item"

If it looks like you received a counterfeit or fake item, please contact the seller:

1. Go to your Purchase History in My eBay.
2. Select the More actions drop-down menu on the right, and then select Contact seller.
3. Select a topic that describes your issue.

If the seller doesn't resolve the issue within 3 business days, you can report the item as counterfeit or fake.

Good Luck

[pinetreecottage]

Playing the Devils advocate here.  In the sellers defense, regardless of the the state of the item, seller clearly states his return policy, so I feel it's the buyers obligation to read and accept the terms shown.  There are gazilloins of sellers out there, who offer all manner of policies, so a buyer should shop only from sellers who offer the terms they are comfortable with, just in case of issues.  The old saying "caviot emptor" applies every time someone buys an unseen item.  In this case, as "bootlegging" can be a concern, maybe the thing to do, is ask questions, before buying.

[mater721]

"In the sellers defense, regardless of the the state of the item, seller clearly states his return policy, so I feel it's the buyers obligation to read and accept the terms shown."

Really?

Even for counter-fit or items not as described?  Makes no sense at all - absolving the seller of mistakes they made.

Just because a seller puts terms in their listing does not mean those terms are reasonable, or enforceable.

Example: "All sales final.  No money back on any condition".

What if they send the wrong item? You are saying buyer should abide by that "term"?

"In this case, as "bootlegging" can be a concern, maybe the thing to do, is ask questions, before buying."

Do you honestly think a seller will say "Yes. This is a bootleg version. You still want to buy"?

[pinetreecottage]

I can only repeat.  Buyer is obligated to read and ACCEPT the terms stated.  If not. Move on to a seller that offers acceptable terms. 

[pierrelebel]

Here is what eBay staff had to say on this subject a few days ago:

Buyers certainly don't lack protection on eBay.

Whatever a seller chooses to state on their listing does not trump the rules and policies in place.

Taking your example of a seller writing in their terms that they cannot be held responsible for items lost or damaged in transit, this is 100% invalid because eBay policy puts the responsibility of care for an item on the seller until such time as it has been successfully delivered to the buyer.  

At best, such a statement is completely moot and at worst, it will drive buyers away from that listing.

More specifically: post #11

http://community.ebay.ca/t5/Weekly-Board-Hour-Session/August-12th-2015-Weekly-Board-Hour/m-p/309972#...

[mater721]

Wow.

[00nevermind00]

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@pinetreecottage wrote:

I can only repeat.  Buyer is obligated to read and ACCEPT the terms stated.  If not. Move on to a seller that offers acceptable terms. 

---

And aren't sellers obligated to describe their items accurately? If they don't, then they should eat the return postage.

[mater721]

Correct.

Ebay would collapse if sellers could put in their own terms and ignore the site rules = no buyers.

[fh991586]

The seller doesn't believe he sent a bootleg, stating that my "blurry photos only confuse the issue and frankly I don't see your point when I know no bootlegger could afford to put together such a detailed box right down to the booklets! I think this is simply a case of buyers remorse."

This seller clearly doesn't know much about today's copying capabilities (or even from a couple years ago)...  I've seen sealed Beatles cd boxset that showed same type of unprecise lettering, which would be unthinkable for a major company production nowadays!  But we can't possibly inspect at a distance before buying for everything sold on eBay, can we?

The worse part is that this seller waited a long time before sending the item, and I had to write him to check when he would ship it.  That would not make sense for me to have buyer's remorse, as I would have had plenty of time to ask him to cancel the sale if I didn't want it...  And it was a lot cheaper than any other option I could find for the same item!  Now, right when I unpacked it (the same day I received it), I noticed it didn't look right.

I didn't mention feedback or DSR in messages to seller at this point.  Still waiting before leaving feedback for now.

When I choose the option "Contact the seller" in the buying history section, I am directed to the "Request a refund" option for "Item not as described".  I will follow that path and wait for developement on either eBay or the buyer's part.

[00nevermind00]

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@fh991586 wrote:

I didn't mention feedback or DSR in messages to seller at this point.  Still waiting before leaving feedback for now.

---

NEVER mention feedback and DSR in situations like this. Because if you leave less than positive feedback later, the seller could argue feedback extorsion with eBay and get the red or gray donut & bad DSR removed.

Less than positive feedback is best never mentioned, and left only when all other avenues are exhausted.

[fh991586]

Ebay is now reviewing the case, as both me and the seller asked for it.

Meanwhile, the seller sent me a portion of discussion he had on some other discussion board with other users, and of course he doesn't disclose every information so they all say I'm in the wrong without having the boxset in their hand to see by themselves (one even advance the region of dvd as an issue!)...  I don't really care about their opinion, but I would sure like to find exactly where is this discussion is to read in full for the benefit of my case.  I tried to search it in community boards, but could not find a clue as to where it was written...  Maybe it's not even on eBay, and Google can't find it either with a phrase excerpt.

Every once in a blue moon an eBay customer comes along to make me hate the internet.. a customer headache I will survive. Claims the Ally McBeal boxed set (he got for $28!) is "bootleg".. does this look "bootleg" to any of you? I hope the powers at eBay see this for what it is . he lives in Canada and expects me to pay for return shipping .... sorry .... just had to vent .... (PICS)

[marnotom!]

Have you invited the seller to this thread as Pierre suggested?

[fh991586]

I was not enclined to, mostly because of his reactions so far.  But I guess it doesn't really matter now, so I'll do it.  I'm pretty sure he won't send me his own link in exchange, though!

I should have brought his boxset in a store to take a picture with a real product for comparison, but I figured the security guys would not let me do it. 😕

[pierrelebel]

I just contacted the seller and invited him to join this thread.

[fh991586]

I doubt he will, considering the latest messages he sent me.  He is not happy, and clearly can't handle the situation.  The kind when someone writes "This is my last communication with you" and then send 2 others messages after that...

He clearly is blind to the fact that counterfeit dvds can look more professionnal than blue engraved dvds + xeroxed packaging (items from Asia & Russia must be inspected carefully).  And he NEVER disclosed the precise origin of it, hiding behind an old eBay transaction.

Oh, and did I forgot to mention he told me that he runs a PIRATE RADIO STATION?  Yes, he did...  In a plain message before I received the boxset, that can be viewed by eBay on their server.

[gullerud]

Okay  Francis..  you've  gone too far.   I  explained  to you  in all honesty  I  run a  pirate radio station in a  small  mtn community called  Pine Mtn Club..   population under 1500.   I never step on any other stations and  no one has  complained..  you're so **bleep** retentive  you probably think  that everyone - including the FCC -  is  royally  upset about  my providing 24/7  beautiful music to a community  that only gets stations  from south of the border.  And the reason  I   told you this info, again in  all honesty -  is you  asked why I did not include  the   audio CD  soundtrack with this MINT CONDITION  dvd set..  I  explained  that I have over 4000  cds  and it would take a while to find it.. I also was kind enough to   invite you to  KEEP IN TOUCH so that when I DID  find the CD, I could mail it to you..but no..you had  to start  this crazy rant.   I agreed  to  refund your $28  ( a  steal  for this gorgeous  NON BOOTLEG  set if I ever saw one!)  but that  my ads clearly state  buyer pays  shipping..  especially to Canada..   anyway  folks..take a  look at the photos  of this  so called   "bootleg" set and tell me   if  any  bootlegger     would take the time  to  this much  detail for  ALL MCBEAL!!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ALLY-McBEAL-COMPLETE-SERIES-Like-New-All-Discs-except-soundtrack-31-discs-NR...

And yes, Francis.  I do NOT wish to   communicate with your  paranoid   emails  any longer.

Peter Gullerud

[gullerud]

I also  explained  I was  selling  a  car   and  politely  apologized  for the slight delay.. then i gave you the U.S. tracking #..

man Francis..  you like to OMIT  stuff just so you  smell nice.

[gullerud]

Was just invited..  had  no idea this circus  was  going  on  over  something  I   did absolutely nothing wrong  on.

I played  2  discs   from that set and they were just fine.. the CD, too, is PROFESSIONAL, folks.  NO BOOTLEG!

Brother.

[gullerud]

"but that  my ads clearly state  buyer pays  shipping..  especially to Canada.."

sorry  --  should have read   FROM  Canada  ..  I already paid for the shipping TO.