Well, I got my first neg...

[mirakbiz_inc]

What really upsets me is that I don't think I deserved it. Item was shipped super fast and I never heard back from the buyer (newbie)...

Last week as part of my routine cleanup, I sent an email to all my buyers that didn't left feedback, reminding them to please do so.

This newbie (0 feedback then) bought a remote control from me awhile back (original purchase was in January) and then he just leaves a neg saying "Item didn't work" (I sell many of these, never had a problem, but it could have been defective or just damaged in transit).
He never mentioned anything about the item not working, I could have exchanged the item or even offered a refund, all he needed to do was let me know.

I immediately placed a reply to his neg, and since I left positive to him after the item was shipped, I left a follow-up comment too.
Sorry, just venting here..

I work really hard to make sure my buyers have a good experience, and guys like this make me mad...

;-)

[your-chic-shopper]

BTW: if you are only going to ship once a week consider a run to the Point yourself ... it's a great place to have a relaxed lunch

Please call me tomorrow I am think of doing that exact thing

1-604-524-3278
9 to 3

please call
Todd

[shooger]

"Has a transaction been completed if a customer who initially paid you through PayPal charges back the item?"

Yes. By the definition of a transaction, as outlined in my auctions and in my opinions, yes. There is nothing more for the customer to do. If they leave negative, the transaction was still complete from their end. If they file a chargeback and I can't prove I shipped their item, the transaction was still complete from their end. As my auctions (and opinions) state, their work is DONE once they make a full and on-time payment with a valid shipping address.

My local friend and I do the same business. We started at the same time, do the same volume of the same product, and ship in the same manner. I leave feedback upon receipt of payment, he doesn't leave any at all (not even after the buyer does). He has 4 negatives and about 700 positives. I have 11 negatives and about 1200 positives. Other than the fact that he doesn't leave feedback, all other variables are almost identical. You tell me if that's statistically significant or not - I think so.

[amberwoodottawa]

In my review of first leaving feedback VS waiting, I have also difference, however it is significantly different from the comparison between yourself and your competitor.

Here are my statistics:
In December I left everyone Feedback as soon as I was paid. Out of 52 eBay sales I received 18 positive feedbacks (no negatives, no neutrals).
That's a 34.62% return of FB.

In January (for the first time) I selectively left Feedbacks waiting for comments from customers, confirmation thay recd and were happy with product or until they left feedback.
Out of 16 eBay sales, I received 10 positive feedbacks (no negatives, no neutrals).
That's a 62.5% return of FB.

You know what it proves? Nothing. As each customer is distinct, their decision to leave FB is their own. Those statistics dont assure me that holding back from giving FB gets me a higher return of positive FBs. Nor does it tell me that leaving FB as soon as someone pays will result in fewer FBs.

Here is the way I look at it. I sell great products at great prices and give excellent, timely & informative service and ship using the fastest, safest delivery service for a fair price that I am able to negotiate.

I thank the customer in my emails and in the personalized letter I include with each product that I ship for his purchase and his prompt payment. It is nice if the customer acknowledges the service, product etc that I have provided them either by way of an email and/or by positive FB.

As a seller I have fully satisfied my obligation as has the buyer by paying me. Whether he chooses to use the eBay feedback system to assist me is his choice. I dont have any problem with that and he will receive a positive FB from me, however it may not be immediately.

If a week or so after shipping someone your product, they come back with abusive language and accusations that what you sent them was not as described in your listing and they leave you negative feedback and charge back the transaction through PayPal, you have lost your opportunity to use the eBay FB system effectively.

That is to be able to warn other sellers that the Buyer is not legitimate and in fact has not completed the transaction.

The bottom line is if you had your choice with those types of buyers, you cant honestly tell me that you would not have preferred to change your feedback to give them a negative.

It has to be upsetting to have rewarded someone with positive FB only to find them give you negative FB and charge the item back thru PayPal.

I see it in the threads, the anger from PSers who left positive FB only to have later recd a negative with no advance emails from the customer allowing them the chance to resolve any problems.

Malcolm

[deltone]

I agree with you Malcolm. A buyer has more of an obligation within a transaction than merely paying. Paying does not necessarily make someone a good customer. There are far too many variables. I'm sure Walmart loves paying customers but what about the customer who walks into the store and pays for a one dollar candy bar and then goes and steals a $20 toaster. The fact that the customer paid for the candy bar doesn't make him a good customer.

The transaction is NOT complete until the buyer has the item in his hand and is satisfied. It's one of those "arguments" that could go on forever because the bottom line is that feedback is voluntary and each ebayer will leave it how he sees fit.

[amberwoodottawa]

Deltone
That's a 100% correct statement!
Paying for an item is the obligation part of the process as the buyer is bound by the eBay contract. There are no favours the customer is doing for me by paying me, he is obligated. That is the way eBay has been set up (different from a retail store).

The customer sees something that interests him and he tries to get it as cheaply as he can through the bidding process. After he receives it, should he discover that he has been misled by the Seller and the item is not as described, he has an opportunity to negotiate the return of the item. Some sellers allow customers to return items regardless of the reason for the return.

It is only upon the completion of the entire transaction, the buyer keeping the item or how the parties negotiate the return or some other compromise that determines the success of the deal between the parties at which time it would be ideal for both parties to leave their respective feedbacks.

As I said before, a buyer may not be satisfied with the product and returns it, however he may leave positive feedback for the way the seller handled the deal. I have had that happen on 2 ocassions.

Leaving negative feedback for a Buyer is not retaliation for him leaving the seller negative feedback. It is a reflection of how the Buyer handled his complaint after he received his product. If his negative feedback was unjustified, as determined by the Seller, then the seller has a right and yes an obligation to inform others trading on eBay that they should exercise some caution in their dealings with that Buyer.

In some cases, buyers have set up a scamming operation and while you may not be able to prove it to eBay, you can voice your suspicions by way of leaving negative feedback, something that you may not have the opportunity to do if you assume that the customer completed the transaction the moment he pays you.

I know that my opinion on this issue has changed which is not the result of pre-conceived ideas, rather my personal experience selling on eBay.

Malcolm

[deltone]

I totally agree Malcolm. All 4 negs I received were absolutely 100% undeserved. I know for a fact that a couple of them were trying to scam me (one is now naru) and the others were just impatient, rude people.

Am I perfect and never mess up? Of course not. I've made several errors but have ALWAYS rectified the problems I created and generally go out of my way to be polite, helpful and a good seller. I can think of a couple of times where a buyer might have been rightfully irritated enough to leave me a neg (even though I did correct the problem) and had they, I wouldn't have given them a neg as they handled their end very professionally. As it turns out, they gave me glowing feedback.

Again though, the bottom line is, each person leaves feedback in the manner he choses. Some people seem to think it's the honourable thing to do.......to leave feedback upon payment and that it's somehow dishonourable to wait. I totally disagree with that though as I know for a fact that I'm a very honest, easy going seller and I still feel it's important to leave feedback once the transaction is complete. I've got nothing to hide but I do not want to leave myself wide open for a neg from a careless buyer who is in a bad mood because her kid tracked mud into the house and I happen to be the first person she "sees".

[doc_scribe]

Malcom:

"If a week or so after shipping someone your product, they come back with abusive language and accusations that what you sent them was not as described in your listing and they leave you negative feedback and charge back the transaction through PayPal, you have lost your opportunity to use the eBay FB system effectively."

"That is to be able to warn other sellers that the Buyer is not legitimate and in fact has not completed the transaction."

Disagree. You've only lost the opportunity to trade Neg for Neg...to personally retaliate. So you're angry and want to strike back...well, that's human, normal, and even to be expected...but if your abiding motive is really to "warn the community", then IMO you can do that just as effectively through cagey use of Follow-Up comments. I mean, are you suggesting that buyers/sellers only look at the total number of positives and negs in the feedback, and nothing else? I don't--I always zero in on those seller after-thoughts, because they can be a surer sign of what a buyer was like over the wash of the transaction.

"In some cases, buyers have set up a scamming operation and while you may not be able to prove it to eBay, you can voice your suspicions by way of leaving negative feedback, something that you may not have the opportunity to do if you assume that the customer completed the transaction the moment he pays you."

Again, diligent use of the Follow-Up option accomplishes the same thing...that is, if "warning the community" is the seller's primary motive. I agree though, that unless they've actually received a neg it may be difficult for eBay to act against them, but the 'red flag' still goes up for other sellers, which I consider the most important role of the feedback forum. And yes, I have actually cancelled bids and blocked buyers on the basis of negative Follow-up comments to initially positive transactions.

As shooger suggests, over the wash it, I don't think it really makes any difference how you manage your feedback--whether posting FB immediately after payment or not until you're received a confirmation of delivery and satisfaction, there's no sure way of deterring those bent on negging you. It simply comes down to what attitude you adopt and are comfortable living with in the eBay selling environment.

Personally, I'm a 'glass half-full' kind of guy.

[deltone]

Oh, and this is a direct copy and paste from ebay's own help section:

"If any aspect of your transaction was unsatisfactory, consider contacting the seller or buyer to resolve the issue—either by email or phone—before you leave feedback. Most eBay members will be happy to resolve the issue."

Ebay recommends that you contact the seller to resolve an issue before leaving feedback which would indicate to me, by ebay's own wording that even they believe one should wait until the transaction is truly complete, in other words, when the buyer has the widget in hand.

[doc_scribe]

I think they're talking about feedback from the buyer's perspective there deltone. To me that reads as buyer cautionary text, as in, "don't go off half-cocked via feedback before allowing the seller a chance to resolve your gripe(s)."

Two of my own negs (including the most recent), were from buyers who had totally avoided contact for weeks regarding a missing item, but were unwilling to wait even a day or two longer for me to complete a postal trace. I told both that I would either replace or refund if the trace came back 'lost', and yet they still negged--even lied regarding my willingness to co-operate. IMO these were blatant abuses of the feedback forum, which in the negative, should only be used as a last resort when buyer/seller communication has totally broken down.

[deltone]

Doc, the actual text refers to both the seller and the buyer. It says: "consider contacting the seller or buyer to resolve the issue".

It's NOT just geared to the buyer, it's geared to both.

[amberwoodottawa]

I dont wait for neg FB to deal with a problem, I wait for the customer to tell me that there is a problem. Should he give me a negative FB before giving me the opportunity to resolve his misunderstandings about what was sold and shipped, then he deserves to receive a negative feedback to record that he did not handle himself as a buyer in an appropriate manner.

That is not retaliatory, that is a clear reflection on how the Buyer handled part of the transaction in failing to communicate with the Seller.

Let me ask you how quickly you would be prepared to help a customer who has given you negative feedback? Would it be as quickly and with as much effort as someone who emailed you about a problem with your product and asking for your assistance before leaving you any FB?

If you would handle them differently, why? Is not that less enthusiastic handling of someone who negged you retaliatory, whether you left him a negative FB or not?

It is only natural to be less enthusiastic in giving your undivided attention to someone who has left you undeserved negative FB in an attempt to hurt your business.

I also see it in the threads here how much time is spent trying to get these guys narud, Why? Isnt that retaliatory?

If everyone is so blase about getting the negs, then why is so much time spent trying to get them removed and getting the buyer narud? Why have sellers being paying $20 to Square Trade to have the negs removed?

In fact, we now have a system within eBay that allows us to get the neg removed if both parties have given each other negs and both parties agree to their removal.

Where is your leverage when you are left a neg and the buyer has been left a positive? Nowhere, no leverage at all.

eBay does not specifiy in their policy about leaving FB, be it for the Seller or the Buyer. One cannot assume one part of a rule is intended only for a buyer and not for a seller, while other parts pertain to both parties.

FB is there to be used by the Sellers and the Buyers. As a Seller, it is a tool to assist in one's sales by promoting the number of positive transactions you are able to record.

As a selling tool, each of us can elect how to use it. That means that if it suits you to automatically leave positive FB upon receipt of payment, then that is your choice. At the same time, I am no less wrong for waiting to leave FB on as much as 50% of my transactions, and for others to wait on 100% of their transactions to see if they get positive FB or not.

It has been suggested in this thread that by first leaving positive FB, you stand a better chance of receiving positive feedback in return. Isnt that bribery? What has that got to do with the service and the product you shipped?

FB should be given on its own, not as a retaliatory measure nor as a means of getting positive FB in return! That is the intended purpose of it.

For some however it may be used as a retailiatory tool. I say that is not the case for me, it is more of an insurance policy and one that allows me to properly reflect the overall transaction at the time that I deem it to be complete.

What I sell has a "trial" nature about it. For others, they are selling something that is more acceptable at the moment the package is opened. My risk in having a problem raised by a customer with my items a week after they have received it is therefore higher than what many other sellers sell.

An educated consumer will email me and bring the problem to my attention. An uneducated one will leave me negative FB with unfounded remarks and no advance notice.

There is no right way or wrong way of leaving FB. It is more decided by the nature of what you sell and the type of customers your products will attract.

Malcolm

[deltone]

Very well said Malcolm. I agree wholeheartedly with all you said.

"Let me ask you how quickly you would be prepared to help a customer who has given you negative feedback? Would it be as quickly and with as much effort as someone who emailed you about a problem with your product and asking for your assistance before leaving you any FB?"

This is soooooooo true. Kind of like if someone came and punched you in the nose and then asked you to open the door for them, as opposed to nicely coming up and politely asking you to open the door. I'm more apt to be helpful to the latter scenario.

I want the feedback I leave to reflect my total experience with the buyer. A buyer can leave a Paypal payment within seconds of the end of auction but can still turn out to be the biggest, sleaziest weasel of a buyer and if I leave a positive going on about how great an ebayer he is because he paid fast, and then he pulls all his cr*p, how true is my glowing feedback then?

It was suggested that this is the place to leave a followup. I'm sorry but when you're dealing with someone with thousands of feedback, who is going to take the time to read each and ever feedback and response. They see the red and often that's what they are concerned with.

[amberwoodottawa]

Deltone
Once again 100% on the nose with "... who is going to take the time to read each and ever feedback and response"

eBay's system also does not let one look only at the negs (which is good too). So filtering through all the positives and negatives and then seeing who bought what, to see fi it was the same item being sold now ... Few do that type of research.

The FB system isnt perfect, far from it however it is better than not having one as there is somewhat of a history of the seller and the buyer.

I often look only at the negs of a seller I am intending to purchase from to determine if there is a pattern (continually misrepresenting the product, failing to return emails, overcharging on shipping etc.)

If I see a pattern I become cautious, however, in my case, the accusations are so different from each other and in complete contradiction from the praise of other buyers there is nothing that a buyer would fear from purchasing from me. They simply see a buyer who was not happy with the transaction and left negative feedback but they dont see any repitition of complaints about poor service or poor product.

Deltone, I like your analogy about being punched in the nose and then expected to hold the door open for the customer. It picked up the point that I was trying to make.

I am accused of holding back giving feedback as a retaliatory measure when the service afforded someone who has left a negative will be met with as much or more retaliation from the others posting on this thread.

Another point: How many people that negged you are now on your blocked bidders list? Isnt that retaliatory?

No, it is smart business sense, thats all. No one wants any more problems from buyers making bad judgement calls.

Malcolm

[deltone]

I agree Malcolm. I've put all those 4 on my blocked bidders list, as well as a few others.

As far as checking negs only, there is a very easy way to check negs left and received. Check out this link. It's very valuable.

http://auctiononlinedirectory.com/cgi-bin/negs

[amberwoodottawa]

Deltone
Thanks.

Something like that is great for an experienced eBayer who will review the negs and weigh them appropriately however in the hands of a newbie, all he will see are the negs and may not be able to determine what is a legitimate complaint or a neg from a flake.

Malcolm

[shooger]

"If a week or so after shipping someone your product... they leave you negative feedback and charge back the transaction through PayPal, you have lost your opportunity to use the eBay FB system effectively... to be able to warn other sellers that the Buyer is not legitimate and in fact has not completed the transaction."

And yet, this is what I'm telling you. The buyer HAS completed the transaction, and IS legitimate. If you definite "complete" differently, that's fine. My auctions say that the buyer's obligation is finished once they pay and provide a shipping address. End of story. You can't say that I'm misuing the eBay feedback system anymore than I can say you are.

"There are no favours the customer is doing for me by paying me, he is obligated."

Again, this is just a difference in how you and I run our businesses. My buyers ARE doing me a favour by buying from me and paying me, and I thank them for it with feedback. You can definitely accuse me of having poor judgment, but keep in mind that it works extremely well for me. Your method is working very well for you, as evidenced by the fact that you are posting here on the PS board. You are not a failure.

"It is only upon the completion of the entire transaction, the buyer keeping the item or how the parties negotiate the return... that determines the success of the deal between the parties at which time it would be ideal for both parties to leave their respective feedbacks."

That may be true for violins, but it isn't true for collectible cards. I've shipped about 4000 auctions of cards: 1 has been lost in the mail, 0 have been damaged, 0 have been mis-shipped, and 0 have been "not as described". There's near no chance for error. So little chance, in fact, that I have a no-return policy. My buyers get exactly what they purchase from me. These cards are well known to the buyers, unlike buying a violin, which they may or may not have held in a store or at a friend's house. They might not be happy with it. It may have a small flaw in workmanship. It can be damaged in shipment. It can take weeks or get stuck at the border. The cards, they go into a plain envelope, protected in a hard plastic sleeve. There just aren't any errors. I leave immediate feedback, because I know the only way a buyer can leave anything other than positive is if they are lying or trying to cheat me. Yes, it has happened on 7 or 8 occasions now. I've had 6 of these people NARUd, and it didn't take a negative retaliation feedback to get done. That is the ultimate power of the PowerSeller. Retaliation feedback is fun and yeah it helps warn other sellers, but saying "No more eBay for you, for the rest of your life" is just as good (or better).

"Again though, the bottom line is, each person leaves feedback in the manner he choses. Some people seem to think it's the honourable thing to do"

You're right that it is each seller's choice to leave feedback how they want. You're wrong if you think it has anything to do with honour.

"Oh, and this is a direct copy and paste from ebay's own help section"

What that quote means is that you shouldn't leave feedback in anger, but try and resolve the issue with the other person. It doesn't mean that you should hold back your feedback to see if they neg you or not.

"how much time is spent trying to get these guys narud, Why? Isnt that retaliatory?"

Verymuchso. If someone tries to trick, lie, or cheat me out of money or products, I retaliate by having them removed permanently from the eBay system.

"we now have a system within eBay that allows us to get the neg removed if both parties have given each other negs and both parties agree to their removal... where is your leverage when you are left a neg and the buyer has been left a positive? Nowhere"

That's not true. The mutual feedback removal system allows removal of any type of feedback. Since this new system went in, I've had one opportunity to use it. He left me a negative because he had buyer remorse. I offered him a refund if he returned the cards, and he agreed. We both had our feedbacks removed using the new system.

"It has been suggested in this thread that by first leaving positive FB, you stand a better chance of receiving positive feedback in return. Isnt that bribery?"

I'm not sure where you're going with that suggestion. Should we call the RCMP and see if they want to press charges or something?

"Check out this link. It's very valuable."

Cool link! Thanks.

[amberwoodottawa]

shooger
Calm down abit! I dont know who you are trying to argue with.

I wasnt disagreeing with you. and the fact is musical instruments (be it violins or drums or guitars etc) are different from collectors cards and so are the buyers as I pointed out.

What I said in fact is that your customers know the moment they receive your product whether it is what they expected. With my products there is time for them to tune it, play it etc. Often it takes a full week for the strings on some instruments to stretch in order to hold their tune.

So I dont expect feedback from them until at least a week after they receive my product. Often times as well, musical instruments are purchased as a gift and the end user, the musician may not receive it for a couple of weeks after it has been delivered to the buyer.

I also said there is no right and no wrong way to leaving FB, it is entirely relative to what we sell, whom we sell to and how we conduct our business.

I was accused of leaving feedback as a retaliatory measure yet I condemned no one else on how or why they left feedback until the accusation was made. SO I simply suggested what others do when receiving a negative FB is more retaliatory than the method I have CHNGED to in leaving feedback for approximately 50% of my customers to a period after they have received their product.

What is really funny is that some people posting here are so damn confident that it is "their way or no way", a "real walk in my shoes, follow my lead attitude" with a dash of "do it my way or get out of the way" thrown in for good measure.

eBay is an online auction house and each of us brings to it different products, different volumes of business, different commitments and a vast array of experience and/or inexperience.

For anyone on this board to suggest that anyone else is conducting their business in the wrong manner is so out of line it is not funny and I would also suggest it is also not welcome.

This board should be used to offer suggestions, to tell people how we are conducting our business on eBay and to share experiences. From all of this, the intelligent ones will learn and may make chages periodically if required and the rest will continue to do everything their own way with a totally closed mind.

Now dont go off the wall and take this as something directed to you, as it isnt. I am making a general comment that there are people fixed in their way of doing things and if it works for them great.

I know that I changed the method I left feedback starting this past January. Check some of my old contributions to threads where I said I left FB immediately upon receipt of a customer's payment.

I wasnt telling people that was the right way of doing it. I was saying that at that time, that was how I did it and I gave my reasons. At the same time, with a completely open mind, I listened to others with more eBay experience and examined how I might apply how they were leaving FB so I could do it similarly to my customers.

Its now "More Right" for me, but I doubt it is perfect either and clearly this method isnt right for you.

If I were selling collector cards or selling car parts or vacation cruises I would probably do it differently as well.

Malcolm

[systemagic]

Well, I’m reasonably certain that leaving FB immediately isn’t bribery. At least I’m sure that I’ve never left one for that reason. The thought that it may pre-empt negs or encourage positives is an interesting one though. It makes me wonder whether I do other things that have the same affect.
In every listing I write that I’ll refund any returned item for any reason but unfortunately postage cannot be refunded. I’ve only had one item returned and, perhaps, this communicates from the outset that I’m utterly reasonable. I believe that my communication skills can be excellent and I respond to everyone, even apparent angry lowlifes, with respect, understanding, and polite professionalism. This is all probably quite disarming.
I’ve had only one buyer that I’d call clinically mentally unstable (the story’s interesting but too long to go into) and, having treated him the same way, he left me a neutral FB saying no problem with seller. Problem with product. No buyer has ever walked all over me but this scary guy came closest.
I’ve had plenty of buyers that could have easily gone ballistic. Perhaps the intent apparent in my auction listing, immediate feedback, and other communication defuses what stronger, or more confrontational dialogue would entrench into an altercation.
Many of my feedbacks reflect how friendly I am and my excellent communication.
I’ve had only one neg so far and that was because my emails to him weren’t getting through. I refunded him anyway. He had a legitimate complaint and it was the right thing to do.
I will, no doubt, encounter more genuine nutcakes as I increase my volume. Maniacs, like so much else in business, are a matter of numbers. Perhaps I’ll have to re-evaluate my FB policy at that time. Until then leaving a neg for a neg seems, for me, unwarranted.
I’ve been characterized as a nice guy since as long as I can remember. That’s what works for me. Once you can fake sincerity you’ve got it made. 😉

[doc_scribe]

Thank you shooger for roundly challenging the claim that acknowledging swift, no hassle buyer response and payment via positive feedback could somehow be construed as "bribery". Wow...that's a stretch!

It's simply human nature, on or off eBay, to respond to kindness, courtesy, and gratitude...well...in kind. I don't tailor my post auction response to the loony extreme, and won't. I couldn't continue doing this with the same energy if I did.

Back to the OP, the negs will occur no matter what you do, so it's really a question of what sales frame of mind you're comforatable living with on a daily basis.

Again, I prefer the glass half full, and innocent until proven otherwise approach.

[doc_scribe]

Sorry systemagic, that was meant for you too.