Another Singapore INR, what am I doing wrong?

[needsmorerobots]

This year I finally sold items to Singapore but on the 2 times I've sent packages, customers filed an "Item Not Received".

The first time I sent the product (a Blu-ray) off via international air (no tracking), I made sure the address existed via Google maps. 

I filled the usual customs form through Canada Post.

Customer filed an INR a week after the delivery deadline.

Second customer from Singapore:

This time I was going to make sure the package would arrive.

I made sure not only the address existed, but that the customer did as well and the customer existed at the address.

I filled a customs form through Canada Post but stuck a label with the buyer's exact address to the parcel as a precaution in case the custons form somehow dropped (or was pulled) off.

Parcel (this time a CD) was shipped via Canada Post international air (no tracking).

Ebay gave it a deadline of 2 weeks to arrive.

Buyer filed an INR one week after the deadline.

I'm stumped.

Did I do something wrong?

What should I have done differently?

At this point I'm considering striking Singapore off my shipping list.

[ricarmic]

I can't tell for sure from your note if you've used online labels or you're a stamps on the package kinda person.

If you are using the online customs form, it won't let us put in the related tax number. We can stick it in the address but that doesn't count as "electronic" which is what the international countries generally require. I think this will cause problems with some countries, Singapore appears to be one of them. It will either make it much slower going through their customs (and they'll often pay their tax twice) or it doesn't arrive at all.

Almost forgot to add the moral of this story, I think the thing to change, if you aren't already is to use online labels for stuff to Singapore.

[needsmorerobots]

Thanks for the advice.

I didn't see in either of the sales I made a related tax number.

Maybe the tax number will appear if I do an online label through ebay?

For my packages I don't do stamps, I pay at the Canada Post counter when it's ready to go.

[femmefan1946]

Was the second one tracked?

There is a scam,even with tracked items,where the buyer does not pick up  from the customs office until the INR has given him a refund, at whch point he gets the item for only the cost of duty.

But no tracking means we pay INRs, true or false.

This is the reason I don't ship to India  or Israel. Either they have poor postal services or ...

[needsmorerobots]

---

@femmefan1946 wrote:

Was the second one tracked?

There is a scam,even with tracked items,where the buyer does not pick up  from the customs office until the INR has given him a refund, at whch point he gets the item for only the cost of duty.

But no tracking means we pay INRs, true or false.

This is the reason I don't ship to India  or Israel. Either they have poor postal services or ...

---

No, unless it's expensive, I avoid tracked.

Weird thing is the time i shipped to India  I was okay but both times I ship to Singapore and it goes badly.

Lesson learned, don't ship to Singapore. 😊

[marnotom!]

---

@needsmorerobots wrote:

Weird thing is the time i shipped to India  I was okay but both times I ship to Singapore and it goes badly.

Lesson learned, don't ship to Singapore. 😊

---

In my books, twice is a coincidence and not a large enough sample for making decisions like this.  I doubt you'd stop shipping to the US if you got hit with two INRs in a row for untracked shipments.  🤪

[ricarmic]

It is so weird how things do/n't work for different folks. 

My experience is BACKWARDS to @femmefan1946  I have virtually no problems to Israel, but I've lost the last 2 items to India. (I don't ship to India normally, I made one exception and one was through a forwarding service, both were lost). Now of course since I've made the Israel proclomation the one I mailed yesterday will probably be cursed now.

Regarding the tax number, I'm seeing that only some countries have it sort of inserted into the address, normally it isn't for Italy and Spain? I've seen it sometimes in Singapore, sometimes not. I don't know where to look to see if it is "known", I'm not seeing it anywhere on the stuff I print out so it doesn't look like it is being assessed. (This is very true for UK, sometimes they pay sometimes they don't, sometimes the same buyer pays for one item and not the next).

So far Singapore is on my ok list. (I am also a stamps on the box kinda guy).

PS if you are doing at the PO it is the same "concept" as me, you're using the online customs form, that is the weak link in the chain so to speak.

[femmefan1946]

I've seen the tax/customs number on UK invoices.

[marnotom!]

@needsmorerobots, were these items sent as Small Packets or as letters with customs forms?

[needsmorerobots]

---

@marnotom! wrote:

@needsmorerobots, were these items sent as Small Packets or as letters with customs forms?

---

Small packets.

I only send as lettermail within Canada (or oversized lettermail). 

[needsmorerobots]

---

@ricarmic wrote:

It is so weird how things do/n't work for different folks. 

My experience is BACKWARDS to @femmefan1946  I have virtually no problems to Israel, but I've lost the last 2 items to India. (I don't ship to India normally, I made one exception and one was through a forwarding service, both were lost). Now of course since I've made the Israel proclomation the one I mailed yesterday will probably be cursed now.

Regarding the tax number, I'm seeing that only some countries have it sort of inserted into the address, normally it isn't for Italy and Spain? I've seen it sometimes in Singapore, sometimes not. I don't know where to look to see if it is "known", I'm not seeing it anywhere on the stuff I print out so it doesn't look like it is being assessed. (This is very true for UK, sometimes they pay sometimes they don't, sometimes the same buyer pays for one item and not the next).

So far Singapore is on my ok list. (I am also a stamps on the box kinda guy).

PS if you are doing at the PO it is the same "concept" as me, you're using the online customs form, that is the weak link in the chain so to speak.

---

I've shipped to Israel once or twice and had no problems either. Definitely different experiences for everyone.

Is there anyway to fill out a customs form that isn't online? My Canada Post office doesn't hand out of the old customs forms and I ran through my own stash some time ago.

[ricarmic · Accepted solution]

Even if you could find/use a "paper" style it has the same problem.

The customs authorities want electronic documentation, if one uses online shipping labels, that allows one to put in the HS codes etc as part of the label making them electronic.

One cannot do this with the online customs form (my theory is that this form isn't really meant for business' to use so they won't be including that field for us "ever"), even if one tries to sneakily stick it in the address somewhere, and/or put it on the package proper.

So the problem is online customs forms (which don't work) vs online shipping labels (which do work).

Those of us using the online customs forms don't have much in the way of options aside from bearing the risk of continuing to use them, or moving to online shipping labels. 

In my case it is somewhat blasphemous to NOT put stamps on the package to a stamp collector. Clearly many sellers do not put stamps on and use the online shipping labels as I see folks complaining about it in other sellers feedbacks and/or they specifically ask me to put stamps on the package. I personally believe a chunk of my repeat buyers are such because of the stamps on the package.

So far the costs outweigh the rewards, as with all things here and on the other sites I use, one has to adjust as things change over time...

[femmefan1946]

Is it possible to combine the online customs label with stamps? And if so, could you walk me through the process?

No rush. I don't have anything to mail that requires tracking at the moment.

[ricarmic]

@femmefan1946 

I'm confused by your request, my coffee must be wearing off, the online customs form is what we all have to use unless the PO fills it out for us:

https://www.canadapost-postescanada.ca/information/app/cdc?execution=e1s1 

(Sadly there is no "BOX" to put the VAT/TAX number in and I don't think there ever will be).

When we give this to the PM they scan the online customs form in, and for us "stamps on the box" kinda folks they just have to click the "preaffixed postage" and all is good (I have to train any new folks that show up, I've gotten used to asking them if the total is ZERO. Sometimes if I get gabbing to the regular PM they forget the preaffixed postage button, so we've got a new "rule" "no talking till the forms are done" 😀").....

Let me know if I've missed what you were asking.....

[ricarmic]

ARRGGHH this was an error, coffee has definitely worn off too soon today:

The customs authorities want electronic documentation, if one uses online shipping labels, that allows one to put in the HS codes etc as part of the label making them electronic.

Should have said:

The customs authorities want electronic documentation, if one uses online shipping labels, that allows one to put in the TAX codes etc as part of the label making them electronic.

Apologies for the confusing wording....

[pjcdn2005]

Does eBay collect tax from Singapore buyers?  I don't recall ever reading that they did and if not, there wouldn't be a tax number required.  

[ricarmic]

I recall seeing it added like the Australian ones in the early days. I have had a number of sales in the last few months, I don't see anything on the stuff I see anymore, same as is the case for some other countries like Italy and intermittantly for UK etc.

So I think you are right, its either not being taken off now, or it has changed how it is being done, which is good for us, we don't pay ebay fees on "invisible" taxes!

[darak10]

I used to sell there pre pandemic, I think I only ever had one INR to Singapore.  Its got a higher standard of living than here, so its not the postal service, 95% chance they lied to get a freebie.

Post pandemic I dont ship to any of these exotic places anymore - Israel same as Singapore, one INR i can remember there ever, Oman, Indonesia, Malaysia (more INRs there than anywhere) as its just not worth it unless you can ship it with tracking.  Its so easy to lie and so easy for stuff to get lost between here and there - I remember some of those addresses in Indonesia and Malaysia that would fill the envelope - its just not worth it the hit to the pocket book as the buck stops with us.  

That and parcel forwarding services are becoming so much more widely used by folks in countries with sketchy and unreliable postal services (hey South America!) that Ive gotten to the point where I tell prospective South American customers - usually Chileans and Argentinians - about them, put them in contact with one in Florida several of my Argentinian customers use called Eshopex, they are top notch, and let them run with it.  Some of them go for it, set up an account, and buy the item, and some dont.  Either way, I win, as I stop the drain of INRs from my wallet.  This is the way of the future honestly, as sellers have had to bear the weight of postal system flaws and dishonest customers for way too long, parcel forwarding services level the playing field and help minimize the chance of bogus INRs as all we need to do is get it to the doorstep of the parcel forwarding company and they are responsible for importing the item and delivering the item to the customer.  

For sellers pocketbooks sake, I would start saying no to international deliveries to sketchy locations and redirecting them to one of these companies who save us enormous headaches and lost income.  And if you are Canadian and have a local office, for gods sake open a chitchats account or some other discount shipping service - if you live in metro Edmonton and Calgary for example there is no excuse anymore, there are now 4 district offices in Edmonton alone, one ten minutes from my house - and stop using Canada Post, there are other cheaper and more efficient options available that provide better service (meaning: a tracking number without charging you an exorbitant fee!) to you.  

[marnotom!]

---

@ricarmic wrote:

I recall seeing it added like the Australian ones in the early days. I have had a number of sales in the last few months, I don't see anything on the stuff I see anymore, same as is the case for some other countries like Italy and intermittantly for UK etc.

So I think you are right, its either not being taken off now, or it has changed how it is being done, which is good for us, we don't pay ebay fees on "invisible" taxes!

---

https://www.customs.gov.sg/businesses/importing-goods/import-procedures/importing-by-post-or-courier...

[dinomitesales]

From what I've gathered you're just writing the address on the package, bringing it to the post office, and letting them create/print the label? It's entirely possible that the information is not getting transcribed correctly onto the shipping label by the postal clerk and you'll never know.

For pretty much every country Canada Post's computer system has a database of every address in the country (supposedly) and it's up to the clerk to try and find the proper address when entering the info/creating the label. The problem with this is that the database is supplied by the destination country's postal service and in many (most) situations it's not going to match the address exactly provided by the recipient. In other words, the recipients version of their address isn't going to exactly match the "proper" format of the address used by the country's postal service. This is usually because a) the person doesn't actually KNOW the proper formatting of their address as is recommended by their country's postal service; b) it's an older individual who has been using the same address 'format' for many years even though the postal service may have updated it; c) eBay asks buyers to enter address information (e.g. province, region, town, etc.) that isn't actually meant to be included in a properly formatted address for that country; or d) postal codes/city/town names have changed but long-standing inhabitants haven't bothered to make the update (or might not even approve/recognize said update). You wouldn't believe how many times people come up to the counter with international addresses written on parcels that are completely missing a postal code, for a country that I KNOW uses postal codes (yes, I know some countries don't use them, but the majority do; in some cases the introduction of postal codes is still relatively new to said country and many residents choose to disregard their usage).

In my experience, usually the English-speaking countries are easy enough to find in the database (USA, UK, Australia) because their addressing formats are basically the same as ours. But for some countries it's nearly impossible to find a matching address in the database (I'm looking at you, South Korea). If memory serves me correctly Singapore should be fairly straightforward in terms of address formatting but that doesn't necessarily mean it's easy to find in the database; according to the UPU Singapore's entire postcode system was completely changed in 1995 - you may have people still using a pre-1995 postcode simply because they are resistant to change for example.

This all being said, it's entirely possible that the clerk is just selecting a "best guess" address when trying to match the address on your parcel to the database, which could result in erroneous information being electronically tied to the parcel. There IS a way to manually override the database address to make it match whatever you've written on the parcel but it is not intuitive and some clerks may not know how to properly do it (one of the many shortcomings of Canada Post's recent computer software updates). The only way to avoid such errors are to print the label yourself - I would recommend just using eBay's built-in Labels functionality with Canada Post; not only are you saving money over the counter rates, you have full control of the address that is presented on the label.