Buyer from HK uses forwarding agent. Claims not received. Gets a refund.

[service-des-courses]

Well that really shows how important sellers are to eBay.

• I sold a LP record end of January. Not a collector's but it was still $75.
• Buyer is registered in Hong Kong but shipping address was a forwarding agent in Delaware.
• I clearly state in my listings that items under $100 ship 1st Class Mail without a tracking number.
• Next thing I know last week I get a claim from buyer for item not received.
• I try to communicate twice with the buyer. No reply.
• So eBay "steps in". And I just received an email that they refunded the buyer because I did not provide a tracking number.

I know from experience that forwarding agents may take WEEKS to deliver to final destination especially if they are consolidating items. Imagine how long it would have taken to ship this package 1st Class from Canada to Hong Kong.

The thing that's infuriating me is that I got no other option than to refund the buyer. The money was locked in my Paypal account since the beginning. And now it's just gone.

So because a **bleep** doesn't read the fine print, uses a forwarding agent, and claims he did not receive the item after an unreasonable delay I'm out for $75. It's OK I can still pay the rent but I find eBay's practice totally dishonest and disgusting.

Makes me want to find some random items on eBay that ship without a tracking. Buy them, and  get my money back in a few weeks by claiming they were "not received". Too easy!

[momcqueen]

"I clearly state in my listings that items under $100 ship 1st Class Mail without a tracking number."

It's not the responsibility of the buyer to assure the seller uses tracking. Use Tracked Packet and you'll almost assuredly never lose an Item Not Received claim ever again. By stating that which you do above, you're exposing your soft underbelly to an unethical user. You're telling them YOU will lost all INR claims against you because you ship without protection as a rule. You're giving your merchandise away. 

The mail forwarding issue is a red herring.

I lost my first item to a mail-forwarding transaction. It took another two dozen or so lost items over the next few years before I opted for tracking on all parcels moving forward. My sales too Europe suffered but, on the whole, I sleep a lot better. 

[momcqueen]

"I know from experience that forwarding agents may take WEEKS to deliver to final destination especially if they are consolidating items. Imagine how long it would have taken to ship this package 1st Class from Canada to Hong Kong."

Second point: if you had used tracking, the duration of the journey past the USA-based address would have been irrelevant. Under the MoneyBack Guarantee, a seller is responsible to ship an item to the first (and only) address on the account. No further. But you lost this item and all future cases as soon as you shipped without tracking. 

It's your item, and your choice as a seller how to ship it. No tracking equals no protection from INR claims. You could opt, however, for third-party insurance next time. That can usually be satisfied by Proof of Shipment.

[momcqueen]

"Makes me want to find some random items on eBay that ship without a tracking. Buy them, and  get my money back in a few weeks by claiming they were "not received". Too easy!"

Third point: Ebay logs how many INR claims a user has on their account and takes measures to halt purchasing when they become what ebay considers to be excessive. Instead of making clear an intent to commit fraud, may I suggest instead that you take this as a learning experience. All sellers learn this lesson the hard way, I can assure you of that. Some decide the benefit of shipping without tracking (competitive cost) outweighs the risk (items not received cases and loss/theft). Only you can decide wherein your tolerance for risk lays. 

[sylviebee]

@momcqueenwrote:

Third point: Ebay logs how many INR claims a user has on their account and takes measures to halt purchasing when they become what ebay considers to be excessive.

I'm not suggesting that you're incorrect, but I'm wondering how do you know that eBay takes such measures?

[momcqueen]

I make this assertion based on both my conversations with CSRs and ebay staff. 

[momcqueen]

"I'm not suggesting that you're incorrect, but I'm wondering how do you know that eBay takes such measures?"

Also, conversations with Paypal Customer Service Reps. Case in point:

Before I made tracking on parcels mandatory as a store business policy of mine, I would call a Customer Service Rep on nearly all Items Not Received cases that had been opened to discuss my disappointment this had transpired but also to seek reassurance that ebay (or paypal as the case may be) was analyzing the other user's account for gratuitous Items Not Received claims. Because I always asked, I was always given assurance this is the case.

In one instance that now comes to mind, there were extenuating circumstances and, no I had not shipped with tracking to confirm delivery, but paypal refunded the buyer for their INR without withdrawing the funds from my account. In short, paypal chose to side with me despite that I had forgone my Seller Protection by shipping without tracking. Because I had a squeaky clean record as a seller and the buyer did not, paypal extended me the benefit of the doubt over the buyer. (Also, the buyer had already left me feedback complaining the order had been late when it came. Which is not proof it did arrive but circumstantial evidence. And I showed to them I had already switched to tracking-only services from here forward. This was my final INR on parcels ever.) 

[momcqueen]

Allow me to stress that, in my experience, the tracked parcels do not go missing. Even if they drop from the radar for weeks, they will rise from the dead and continue on their journey. 

It's the untracked parcels whose side trips to Paris by accident end in seller refunds. 

As I've said above, every person has a different tolerance for risk but I do not at all regret switching to Tracked Packet from Small Packet. While it's true for me that sales Europe have suffered somewhat, I no longer worry every time I make a trip to the post office that I kissed my payment and postage and item goodbye.

I still ship about 15 per cent of my product line via lettermail without tracking due to size and general lowish value/plentiful supply. Mostly within Canada.

In that regard, I've had two INR for lost lettermail in six years.

No, three, but one was a postal counter error where the worker undercharged me for my item postage and I knew it at the time but he insisted. Canada Post took a complaint over that. The next INR was a Light Packet I watched the same worker tape my label to my bendy bubble mailer with giftwrap tape instead of packing tape. Again, my protests fell on deaf ears and I said goodbye to that lettermail too. This time, my complaint to Canada Post resulted in a one-time credit to my account for the error of the worker. 

[sylviebee]

---

@service-des-courseswrote:

• I clearly state in my listings that items under $100 ship 1st Class Mail without a tracking number. 

---

That's a mistake.  Even very sophisticated buyers won't be able to ascertain if an item was shipped without tracking if the label has a bar code.

For example:  Items shipped from the US via First Class International will have delivery confirmation if the label was purchased on line but not if the label was purchased at the counter.  (At least it used to be that way but could have changed by now.)

Telling buyers right out of the gate that they could file a claim for non arrival and win is making it too easy for those who are inclined to lean that way.

Non-arrival claims are filed for numerous reasons.  One reason is that the item really didn't arrive.  

Another is that the item is simply late and that would be the case for many or even most overseas claims.  

A third reason, and IMO very common, is that the buyer is unhappy with the product and views a non-arrival claim as being the most direct road to satisfaction.  In these cases you'd have a problem on your hands regardless of how you ship.

Buyers who are happy with the purchase rarely file false claims of non-arrival.

BTW:  You say that you shipped via First Class mail.  Are you shipping from the US or did you mean small packets?

[cumos55]

Each and every seller on eBay determines what they MUST do to sell on eBay.

Factors to consider....

(1) The type of inventory they sell. This identifies the type of buyer.....Scammers love certain types of inventory and will scam the seller  if possible,

(2) Value of the item being sold....  The value of an item controls many things a seller MUST do

(3) Tracking......  Many years ago... over 10 years ago...   shipping worldwide without tracking worked.  Then came eBay's rules, and tracking became an absolute necessity.

Canada Post  insured small packet... that did not have  tracking .... and eventually the cost of insurance claims killed insured Small Packet

The most important consideration with tracking is the value of an item,  and the insurance value.

I use lettemail without tracking if the item weighs less than 500 grams  and is valued at $25 and less.....  The inventory I sell, and then the buyers of that inventory allows me to do this and to go higher than $25 in certain situations 

If it is a high value item weighing less than 500 grams.... It will get shipped with tracking, fully insured... and never without fully insured tracking

(4) Insurance  is critical for high value items....  For me it is insurance  required above $15 to $25 in value and based on the weight of the sold item as it relates to weight above 500 grams value.

(5)  Shipping internationally became a problem... even though the parcels had tracking....  It was one summer  when tracking for Canada Post parcels going to Europe stopped at Montreal.  

Now it is sales to buyers in Canada and the US.

Sometimes it is lettermail, with no problems...

and then ..... 100 % with tracking, and fully insured... for those items weighing more than 500 grams

The number of problems ... maybe one each year......  and with everything in control by me the seller

----------------------------------------

Shipping something valued at $100 without tracking is ..... suicide...

If a buyer wants it   they pay the full cost of item plus postage... without any questions...

[service-des-courses]

Thanks all for your input. I get it. Tracking number next time even if it costs more to the buyer.

I guess my high level point was that it's amazing how much eBay controls your world. I'm not sure how you feel, but I hate control freaks.

In this case they sent me several cute emails "you should communicate with your buyer". Well that's what I did and I never got a reply from my buyer looking at me with disdain from his ivory tower.

Then they sent me another very cute email saying "we are stepping in and we'll have a look at your case". Next thing you know, another email "buyer has been refunded and money taken from your account". Boom. I'm pretty sure NOBODY at eBay looked at this case. Just a poorly written algorithm which decided to update a few records in the database and call Paypal for a refund. Ever tried to call eBay customer service? All they want is get rid of you even if you have a point.

Ebay make kazillions every year because WE sellers do the hard work. We do our best to take good pictures, make an interesting sales pitch in our listing, gather shipping supplies, pack the stuff, make trips to the post office. You all know it takes a LOT of time.

I have been selling on eBay for 17 years, and a total of USD 40k. That might not seem like a lot if you have an eBay store, but I am an individual and to me that's a high figure. I have had a few sales gone wrong during this time but they NEVER sided with me as a seller. As far as I am concerned I believe I have given them enough of my money. I'm done.

[cumos55]

Success with selling on eBay is knowing what .... NOT ..... to do ... as a seller

Establish a protocol with each transaction and make it happen....  with each transation and all transactions

Always be in control as a seller.....  The seller is in control.. not the buyer.

[service-des-courses]

How can you be in control when the service provider has a hand in your purse and does what he wants with it? And that's without even talking to you. Emails sent automatically. You're just a cash machine with a username on it.

[sylviebee]

@service-des-courseswrote:

Thanks all for your input. I get it. Tracking number next time even if it costs more to the buyer.   """

Just for the record, that's not at all what I said so I certainly don't want it to be noted that I did.

Strongly disagree with that idea.

[rosscd57]

The short end of the stick is this. Find a dollar figure that you are comfortable with if an  item is lost. Then anything over that gets a tracking number - adjust your price if you have to. I think everyone out there knows that shipping is not really free.

I quit selling out of county (except for the USA) a long time ago because of just what you experienced. So everything I ship to Canada and USA gets shipped Expedited because it comes with a tracking number.

Every once and a while someone from Europe will want to buy one of my radios - but they are blocked. So I email them back telling them the only way I will ship it to them is Air Mail with tracking and every once and a while someone takes me up on it.

[service-des-courses]

Wise words. Thanks y'all!

[cumos55]

After over 14 years on eBay, one establishes a protocol for selling that does not conflict with eBay's rules.  There has been a lot of ... fine tuning over the years.

My biggest adjustment in those first years was  ... knowing how to deal with a buyer that is not face-to-face with you.

Before eBay it was selling at a local auction, Winnipeg and southern Manitoba.  Then came eBay, and there have been years of adjustments.

Many new sellers will come to eBay with a preconceived notion of how to sell on-line.... and then they might run into a brick wall.... eBay rules

Sellers have to learn how to adjust... Pay the bills and make it happen... It can be done.

The secret is knowing...   What NOT to do ... 

[esclyons]

I would also send a follow up email to the buyer, that states , your money was refunded for your item not received, with in ebay time standards, when it does arrive, please take a minute and send me the payment owed to me through paypal, or i can send you another invoice, thank you for being an honest buyer.. i appreciate it..  at this point it certainly can't hurt,,

[amcdc79]

I feel for you as I just went through what you have, I will not ship to a freight forwarder w/o tracking.

I'm sure that over the years you have tweaked your business plan, I know I have. We all make mistakes, most of us learn from them, so it doesn't happen again.

Thankfully most transaction go according to plan, good luck going forward.

[femmefan1946]

@cumos55

Canada Post  insured small packet... that did not have  tracking .... and eventually the cost of insurance claims killed insured Small Packet

Hmm.

That was then. And given the sudden onset of small/home businesses shipping directly to customers, I can understand why Canada Post killed the insurance.

But this is now. And Canada Post has learned that their future is parcel delivery. Is it time to revive an insured (or at least tracked) Small Packet service at a very small premium, like 75 cents to $1.00 ?

What would be the cheapest Canada Post could do it for even just the USA? Could the  private -industry- trained senior staff wrap their heads around a non-profit service?

I don't know anyone in the executive of CPO any more, but I understand that there was some friction between the public servant and the private sector groups within the executive ranks under Chopra, and possibly before.