Legit packages returned to sender

[rocketscollectibles]

Just got returned 3 regular white 3x6 envelopes of 17-20g with 0.2cm thickness. Shipped domestic with $0.92 stamps, not even close to think about oversize. Very standard small letter size and flat. Returned for ''postage due''

What's going with CP are we gonna run into this as a standard now?

They all comes from the same shipping day so i guess its the same one employee who returned them all. They cross marked my stamps are they ripped off? Is this cost me 3 packages stamped?

[vintagenorth]

Did they have sports cards in one of those plastic covers in the envelopes? If so, They are considered to be goods and have to be sent with a customs form now and can't go as lettermail. If they were just letters in the envelopes take them in to your post office and ask that they remail them or call Canada Post and ask for a refund.

[ricarmic]

@rocketscollectibles 

I see this is a domestic letter so there aren't any problem with customs forms etc.

When you say 92c stamps do you mean a "P" stamp or smaller value stamps that add up to 92c?

I ask because we've seen items returned when they are not P stamps but are other stamps adding up to 92c by postal folks who believe that there should be "$1.07" on letters if it is not a P stamp. 

There was a long discussion about what is right or wrong about that, in a separate thread but the important part is it doesn't matter what is right or wrong if they're being sent back, meaning it appears to be unsafe to use non P stamps for regular letters, your situation might be the same.

Despite being a stamps on the packages kinda guy I can't personally comment because since I'm sending to stamp collectors as a service to them I am using modern "P" stamps so I haven't had experience regarding the "P" vs $1.07 issue myself. 

[rocketscollectibles]

Yes i'm using combined stamps. But what the heck i never ran into this $0.92 vs $1.07 situation. Don't the postage for a single letter within canada at this day is $0.92?

I'm totally lost right now i shipped hundred at this rate and never had a single return

[ricarmic · Accepted solution]

Hi! @rocketscollectibles  

In my own opinion 92c should work, but in that other discussion there was a fair bit of "evidence" whether it should be 92c or $1.07 was presented.

The problem is if someone in the postal system is a $1.07 believer, and cares, it is going to come back. I suspect it will be rare that it happens but is it worth the work and risk of your buyer problems because of the delays?

As far as I know ALL other rates are fine both within and without Canada to be made up of "non-P" stamps (I know personally because for almost everything other than a "P" situation mine have non-P stamps on them!). It is only the !@$!@$ "P" vs "over the counter" $1.07 situation that is causing problems.

In my own case, if I weren't already, I think I would be using "P" for the "92c" situation and the lower valued stamps for everything else to avoid the risk, but you'll have to make the risk assessment for your own situation on this.

PS here is I think the latest discussion with more info....

https://community.ebay.ca/t5/Seller-Central/Canada-Post-RTS/m-p/469256 

[pjcdn2005]

As rcarmic said there seems to be a problem with the  odd postal worker who wrongly thinks  that if a p stamp wasn't used that postage should be 1.07 for domestic lettermail.   Assuming that your envelopes are under 30 grams, you could take them to the post office/outlet and have them send them again.  We've had the same thing happen a couple of months ago but it hasn't happened since.

[rocketscollectibles]

Thanks for pointing this out i did not knew there was a debate about this. I really tought the postage cost was a clear $0.92. Does not makes much sense to have a grey zone here from canada post

[rocketscollectibles]

Won't start the debate in here again, but the funniest thing is that in their prices chart, we can read under their prices; The Permanent™ stamp is a non-denominated stamp with a postage value of $0.92

Source (page 14); https://www.canadapost-postescanada.ca/cpc/doc/en/support/prices/consumer-prices.pdf

[rocketscollectibles]

Triple post but just an update after we did go to CP office.

First employee said she did not understand why it was returned, but it was probably because the cost is $1.07. She also said that my stamps were cancelled (they were black marked). Being lost, she called the other employee who was an older and more experimented lady. The experimented employee weighted and sized and said she did not understand why i got returned, that the rate IS $0.92. Anyway, she removed the stickers, stamped them and ship! If they want you to put $1.07 value when you use combined stamps for a legit standard size, tell them to bring a superior or something. Cause this is a mistake! 

[grandmas-great-items]

P = mc² ...I mean $0.92 or is it $1.07?

This debate has been going on for quite some time.

Maybe someone from ebay can get in contact with Canada Post to make it official.

I know I have always played it safe and used $1.07 for regular lettermail if using stamps with a cent value on them and if I use P stamps on oversized lettermail or letterpost I'd assume they were worth $0.92

I assume many at Canada Post used to just let it go until now. Now they are cracking down on everything including the letterpost to USA with goods in them.

Keep in mind many ebay sellers purchase discount postage stamps and Canada Post doesn't earn any new profit on that so Canada Post is probably going to be strict with rates going forward.

[ricarmic]

As we saw and heard from the separate thread, if you call CP a few times you will get a few different answers, so there won't be a once and for all answer, even if we did get the once and for all answer it doesn't stop the $1.07 believers from returning the item....which is where the risk is for us.

With respect to using discount postage, as long as it is legitimate, as an example, CP has "had the money" from a 14c stamp purchased in 1978 for 44 years, the current value of the stamp (discounting inflation) is much less so the "cost" to CP isn't really much. The bigger cost to them is counterfeit or reused stamps, if anything I would expect them to be putting more emphasis on that.

[grandmas-great-items]

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@rocketscollectibles wrote:

Won't start the debate in here again, but the funniest thing is that in their prices chart, we can read under their prices; The Permanent™ stamp is a non-denominated stamp with a postage value of $0.92

Source (page 14); https://www.canadapost-postescanada.ca/cpc/doc/en/support/prices/consumer-prices.pdf

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Thanks...that confirms I was doing the correct thing with regards to using P stamps at a value of 92 cents on oversized lettermail and letterpost.

[grandmas-great-items]

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@rocketscollectibles wrote:

Triple post but just an update after we did go to CP office.

First employee said she did not understand why it was returned, but it was probably because the cost is $1.07. She also said that my stamps were cancelled (they were black marked). Being lost, she called the other employee who was an older and more experimented lady. The experimented employee weighted and sized and said she did not understand why i got returned, that the rate IS $0.92. Anyway, she removed the stickers, stamped them and ship! If they want you to put $1.07 value when you use combined stamps for a legit standard size, tell them to bring a superior or something. Cause this is a mistake! 

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Some Postal workers see the $1.07 stamp when people buy the single stamp to mail a letter so some of those postal workers probably assume $1.07 is the value to be used when non-P stamps are used.

[lotzofuniquegoodies]

In checking CP for an explantion of "insufficient postage" a number of interpretations displayed. Some were dated. Some are not. For information purposes only. Or smiles and chuckles!!

What does Canada Post do with insufficient postage?

The sending postal administration pays Canada Post by weight shipped, Canada Post doesn't quibble about how they collected their postage. A shortpaid sticker is applied, and the letter is returned to the sender to affix the deficient postage and repost. ~~Undated

Does Canada Post charge for return to sender?

The recipient has no obligation to pay for the return mail or any costs associated. In other words, the sender or shipper is responsible for the Return to Sender fee and any other charges associated with it. Canada Post bases the Return to Sender fee on the weight or the volumetric equivalent of the parcel's weight.  Jan 18, 2022

Can I return to sender without paying postage?

You can refuse pretty much all types of mail and ask them to be returned to the sender. All you have to do is write the word “Refused” on the envelope or parcel and give it back to your mail carrier as soon as humanly possible. It is important to note that you will not be able to do this if you have opened it.  Oct 13, 2020.  Really hit or miss if original sender is billed for the return. I've had an item marked no such address. Confirmed address with consignee and sent mail out again with original postage only to have it arrive.  Another return marked as only RTS. Consignee forgot suite number and no one from CP confirmed. Had to pay postage for return to me.

https://www.canadapost-postescanada.ca/cpc/en/support/kb/sending/general-information/why-mail-is-ret... 

The item contains insufficient postage. Your item will require new postage before you resend it. ... Learn how to properly address your letters and parcels.  ~~Undated

https://www.canadapost-postescanada.ca/cpc/en/support/articles/undeliverable-mail/what-happens-to-un...

How do I pay for insufficient postage?

If you are the sender of the mail and it is returned to you for insufficient postage, you can also visit the post office to pay the outstanding fees so your mail will be sent. Bring along the same items to expedite the process.  ~~Undated

Lastly what happens when something is returned 50 years later.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/50-year-old-lost-letter-1971-winnipeg-1.6227577

-Lotz

Now for bizarre  US mail trivia. Wouldn't recommend trying same in Canada.

Can I leave money in the mailbox for postage?

Yes, as weird as it may sound, in the United States it is, in fact, totally possible to send a letter by simply attaching money equal to the value of the required postage for a given letter and still have it delivered.May 24, 2019

[recped]

@rocketscollectibles 

One question for you.......

How did you deposit these letters, in a mailbox, at a postal counter (corporate or franchise)?

I rarely use standard Lettermail (except for actual letters) and I normally use P stamps (I do use low denomination stamps on my O/S Lettermail) so I never encountered this issue except for one time when a small denomination (25 cent) fell off.

Just wondering if your Postal N*** was at place of deposit or further down the line.

FYI "3x6 envelopes", that is actually slightly below the minimum size standard for Lettermail, not sure if that is relevant but it's theoretically possible that they are kicked out of the auto system and then when manually handled the issue arises.

Minimum dimensions for all items are 140 mm x 90 mm (5.5 inches x 3.5 inches).

[regs43]

I was the original person from the other thread with this issue. I have had nothing else returned since using a combo of stamps to equal $0.92 and I have mailed about 1200 letters since then.

I do think its a rare one off thing. I just ripped the you owe us money thing off and had her send it out that day and it never came back.

[33nhl]

I stopped using stamps long time ago for same reason they had correct amout on the bubble mailer but were being returned, that stopped once i got my post office outlet i use to print the postage labels and never had a return after that.  Also someone i believed mentioned they seeing low end sportscards sales down you can axpect more of it as many USA buyers will not be paying about $10.00 to have 1 $5.00 card shipped to the USA as Small Packet with customs , and i for one have started to use Chitchats far less cost to ship to USA and has tracking. I should have done it long ago but not many locations around which is the problem other wise ditch Canada post and go with chitchats 

[dinomitesales]

As others have mentioned, the postage just needs to add up to 92 cents, NOT the single stamp rate ($1.07).

It's annoying that some employees seem to be misinformed and reject items mistakenly.

Here's the relevant page from Canada Post' "Retail Operations Manual" (relevant section last updated May 25, 2021). Highlighting is mine. Pretty black and white.

[rocketscollectibles]

How did you deposit these letters, in a mailbox, at a postal counter (corporate or franchise)?

Always in the mailbox

FYI "3x6 envelopes", that is actually slightly below the minimum size standard for Lettermail, not sure if that is relevant but it's theoretically possible that they are kicked out of the auto system and then when manually handled the issue arises.

Minimum dimensions for all items are 140 mm x 90 mm (5.5 inches x 3.5 inches).

Size was fine it's actually 6 1/2 x 3 5/8. But yeah the employee said that my sender postal code should be smaller (it was already very small imo) and that i had small pieces of tape touching the side of one stamp, and that this is two things that could have rejected them from the automated system at first. Or something like this. To be honest she did not understood how i got returned either. Apparently i had marks on my envelopes that they are supposely not doing anymore too

[grandmas-great-items]

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@dinomitesales wrote:

As others have mentioned, the postage just needs to add up to 92 cents, NOT the single stamp rate ($1.07).

It's annoying that some employees seem to be misinformed and reject items mistakenly.

Here's the relevant page from Canada Post' "Retail Operations Manual" (relevant section last updated May 25, 2021). Highlighting is mine. Pretty black and white.

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 This is kind of funny because based on the wording on this people can either ask to buy 1 - $1.07 stamp or they can ask to buy .25  + .25 + .25  + .10 +  .07  in stamps to mail one letter at the post office.