Pitney Bowes: unjustified extra fees: huge scam: who will stop this scam?

[habanera4ima]

This "third party" Pitney Bowes is running a disgusting scam on eBay! How can customers make ebay aware that this is a fraud ? This third party does not represent official customs an does not give US or Canadian customs any money, they put it all in their pockets. By using fraudulously the term "custom fees", they are not only lying to ebay buyers, but also to official authorities who are not getting these extra "custom fees". Sellers! Why do you make business with these people? they are stealing money from you and from your customers! If ebay cannot or will not take action, this fraud issue will be taken directly to the federal governments of both countries to unveil the scam. Enough is enough!

[brandeentertainment]

All I know is I have purchased over 100 items from the US and before this programs I was never not once charged anything when shipped through USPS a.k.a Canada Post and I was charged once with UPS because I didn't notice they shipped with UPS ...

This programs without a doubt is KILLING US SALES TO CANADA ...

I paid $22 to Pitney bowes for an item that Me $30 please someone justify that one  for Pitney bowes..

I would not call it a scam I would call it one of the Dumbest things ever implimented on ebay ..

[femmefan1946]

Unless an item has been made in a NAFTA country,they charge 19% duty on all goods although many of their items have a duty rate below that (some are 5% and 12%). Then you pay tax on the item and the duty.

Sorry, who are "they" in this example? Pitney Bowes?

 In this sense, P-B probably understood that it had a captive, "safe" market to try out it's scheme.

I wonder how long the contract is? One year? Five? Might it be in the Annual Report for 2013?

[pierrelebel]

"who are "they" in this example?"

I think the reference here is to LL Bean whose policy is to charge a flat rate for "duty" when shipping to Canada for all items not made in North America.  Taxes are charged based on the province of residence as it should be.  It only takes a few minutes on their site to get the big picture.

And yes Canadians keep buying from them and many other well respected American retailers despite pre-payment of taxes.

[i*m-still-here]

Not quite that simple Pierre.   There is no comparison between the way these companies, such as LL Bean collect taxes and the way the GSP does.

For example........... (as stated above) the landed cost for shirt which costs an American $50 costs a Canada is less than $60......... That's including duty plus taxes.

Shipped is included or free or whatever you want to call it.

No one is going to complain about that.

That's from LL Bean, and even if the percentage charged by other similar American retailers is a little higher ............ There simply is no comparison between what these companies are doing when they require pre-payment of taxes like the GSP or other shippers who charge handling and brokerage fees are doing.

That's another story and if anyone can pull that off for an eBay item:................ Who's is going to complain because the added cost is lower than what we currently pay for shipping in most cases?

You're comaring apples and oranges.

[tobyshitzu]

"

OK, but to me it appears as if the US never collects on eBay type items.  Canada is lenient, but I think the US may waive that law altogether.

My American friends tell me they have never been asked to pay.

So imagine if P-B installed the program on .ca and pushed it into listings without the seller's approval the way they've done on .com.

If suddenly Americans had to pay the way we are asked to  on GSP items over $200 then it would hit home.

The program would be shut down as quick as a click."

It could end up making even more sense for a lot of sellers to have it in Canada with CP's high and rising intl rates.  Being PB"s fees aren't that high \when you take off the tax and duty due in Canada its qutie conceivable their fees/2 leg shipping would be less then the shipping savings they could get

The same way vendors are flocking to fullfillment by amazon and paying for storage, packing and shipping because amzn can ship it for less and faster 

[pierrelebel]

"You're comaring apples and oranges."

???

I am NOT comparing GSP to LL Bean.  Nobody is.

"LL Bean" was suggested simply as an example of an American company pre-charging Canadian taxes (and duty if applicable) and remitting the taxes to the Canadian government.  Canadian buyers like it and keep coming back. There is nothing illegal or wrong about an American company registered to collect and remit taxes as has been suggested by a few ill informed posters.

LL Bean absorbs the extra costs of shipping to Canada just like I absorb the extra cost of shipping overseas. Big deal. Many American exporters use similar marketing techniques.  It is simply a few percentages in the overall gross margin.  Many business models copy such structure.

Pitney Bowes on the other hand offers a range of specific services (under contract from eBay) and does not sell merchandise where it could offset some of its costs. GSP is a program initiated by eBay to help American sellers exports. The extra costs of this service are paid by buyers worldwide, not by American sellers.  As stated so many times - it is getting boring - it is not advantageous for most transactions by most Canadian buyers.

Apple and oranges.

[i*m-still-here]

It's an eBay discussion board and justifying the pre-collection of taxes and using companies such as LL Bean to do so................ is simply misleading.

Until I went to the website I didn't understand.

When I processed an item it became clear, and had I not pointed out here that they are absorbing shipping costs, handling fees, and brokerage fees it would still be misleading.

EBay will never approach that, and neither will most US companies.................. so why even go there?

[pierrelebel]

"Until I went to the website I didn't understand."

And that is the very point  a few posters have tried to raise.  Many Canadian buyers are not aware of pre-payment of taxes. Many may never have imported anything other than purchasing through eBay.

It is not a question of good or bad but it is important to understand GST/HST pre-payment does exist and the subject is very much part of this discussion on GSP as pre-paying Canadian taxes is one concern correctly raised by many Canadians who no longer wish to use that program.  And they have a very valid point.

There is nothing misleading about it.  It is unfortunate you do not understand the poimt.

[pjcdn2005]

You say that the program works for some items some of the time but that is no reason to salvage the program, and as long as you defend it, you give them a foot in the door.

(Well, not really....... just conceptually.........It's all just talk anyway and no one cares what we think anyway. It's just talk.)

Right...regardless of what I say or what you say, ebay is going to do whatever they want to do. So it makes sense to me to try and explain to others how they can best use the system. For some it may be avoiding it altogether and for others it may mean that they use it only for specific purchases.  But they can only decide that if they have the correct information and understand how it works.Simply telling them that it is a scam or that it is always more expensive doesn't help anyone.

.As I've said many times, I would rather that ebay didn't have any type of GSP so I am not defending it, trying to salvage it or even trying to convince anyone that they should like it. I am simply trying to help make the best of the situation.

[pjcdn2005]

Judging by the negative response the GSP has received, it seems to me, generally speaking, that neither Canadians nor Americans (those who understand what's going on behind the GSP), like it, and most revile it.  I can imagine it may benefit a minority of Canadian and overseas purchasers of high-value goods, but for the majority of ordinary buyers and sellers it's the kiss of death. 

 
Rose, Believe it or not, I've seen sellers post on the U.S. Powersellers board about how they really like the program.It really annoys me when they say that and when they encourage other sellers to try it but they are obviously looking at it from a totally different point of view.. Those sellers see it as a way of selling internationally without having to worry about the package once it leaves the country. Many of them did not ship out of the U.S. before so any international buyer they now have is an added sale. Some that did sell internationally before the GSP like using the program because they feel it causes less stress. Obviously there are many U.S.sellers who feel differently but there are sellers out there who are pushing the program.

Why keep a programme that was ill-conceived to begin with?  Well, judging by the propagandizing done by eBay to US sellers, it's to protect sellers' reputations and ratings.  In reality, it's likely to protect Pitney-Bowes' middleman status so they can continue collecting all the dough. 

I doubt that ebay cares about PB's status. In reality, ebay wants to make more money...as we all do. If more U.S. sellers selling outside of the U.S. results in more sales, ebay receives more fees. From our point of view, it is more likely that less international buyers will purchase from the U.S. because of GSP...obviously ebay looks at it differently. Maybe they'll decide that we're right and that the program is a flop. Or perhaps it is working well for them in other countries. We're a small portion of the ebay world so what works for us, may not be true for everyone.

my primary criticism of it is the disingenuous way it's been force-fed down the throats of unwitting US sellers under the pretense of assisting them in their selling endeavours. The propaganda is pure horse poop.  If it were a truly beneficial programme for sellers and buyers alike, eBay would have offered it as an completely open-ended option to sellers, and if it worked, they'd come back again and again.  You don't have to over-sell something that works well. 

100% agree!  I also think that the way they implemented it caused a lot of unneeded confusion and bad feelings.

[i*m-still-here]

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@pierrelebel wrote:

"Until I went to the website I didn't understand."

---

Until I went to the website I didn't understand that the way LL Bean has buyers prepay taxes is nothing like the way the GSP operates and that the comparison is moot.

It's a poor comparison on so many levels.

These companies tend to also charge duty, and most of the eBay items in question do not.

These companies charge taxes and duty the same way they would were one to physically walk into a store in Canada and pay taxes with no added fees...............  and that is not the case for items being discussed.

I understand, Pierre, that you are saying that it is a legitimate practice to pre-collect taxes.

No one is arguing that or missing that point.

However, you are comparing apples to oranges when you compare the way LL Bead charges taxes and the way the GSP (for example) collects taxes.

[i*m-still-here]

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@pjcdn2005 wrote:

Right...regardless of what I say or what you say, ebay is going to do whatever they want to do. So it makes sense to me to try and explain to others how they can best use the system. 

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I can see that this is your intent, but when you advise others how to use the system you are also advocating the system.

The truth is that even "IF" a buyer can make it work for one item, that same buyer was likely hampered for the previous ten purchases and so there really are no redeeming qualities to the GSP when you look at the big picture.

[pierrelebel]

"No one is arguing that or missing that point."

????

You have not read all the posts questioning PB right to collect and remit taxes.  There are plenty of those by folks who did not know..

[i*m-still-here]

You think posters don't know our tax laws.

I think that you didn't know about the way our government chooses to (not) apply those laws.

[pierrelebel]

"I think that you didn't know about the way"

Why oh why do you insist in arguing?  What are you trying to prove?

[i*m-still-here]

Pierre, what you view as an argument, I view as a discussion.

Until just now I didn't realize that you were arguing.

[rose-dee]

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@pierrelebel wrote:

"No one is arguing that or missing that point."

????

You have not read all the posts questioning PB right to collect and remit taxes.  There are plenty of those by folks who did not know..

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I'm afraid Pierre is right here -- there were a lot of people posting remarks up until recently about the illegitimacy of an American company collecting Canadian taxes.  I think there was enough discussion about it to finally convince those who thought there was some illegal activity going on that they were wrong.  

Can we all please finally agree that P-B (and other US companies) do collect and remit Canadian taxes, that it's done all the time, and perfectly legal?  That isn't the issue with the GSP.  Then we can get back to the crux of the discussion, as there have been interesting points raised in this thread.  

[i*m-still-here]

Rose........... I have never once suggested that there is anything illegal with pre-collecting taxes.

I have no idea why you thought I posted that?????? 

Of course it's legitimate.

I am pointing out that the way LL Bean and others similar companies  collect these taxes is not the same way the GSP collects,.

Moreover, since few companies are equipped to do that using them as a comparison is misleading when discussing eBay items.

I beleive that recped has brought this up a number of times by way of pointing out that pre-collecting taxes can work well..................... and perhaps it can.

I am not nor have I ever suggested otherwise, but that has nothing to do with eBay or the GSP.

[i*m-still-here]

I just read your post again...............

People are posting when they're angry and upset with the GSP.

Most of these posters have extensive buying experience.

I find it hard to believe that they're unaware of our Canadian tax laws ............... I've been aware of import limits since I was 12 and I didn't have Google.

However, if these frequent buyers are unaware it's because they've never been charged on purchases prior to the GSP.

So it really amounts to the same thing.

Continually pointing our tax laws to these buyers who have never had to pay before only fuels their anger and makes the GSP even more annoying and does nothing by way of justifying the program.

Quite the opposite.

[rose-dee]

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@pjcdn2005 wrote:

I've seen sellers post on the U.S. Powersellers board about how they really like the program. [...] Those sellers see it as a way of selling internationally without having to worry about the package once it leaves the country. Many of them did not ship out of the U.S. before so any international buyer they now have is an added sale. Some that did sell internationally before the GSP like using the program because they feel it causes less stress. 

You raise an interesting point here.  I've noticed this on the US boards too.  However, I would suggest that the reason some US sellers perceive it as such a benefit is because they've been sold a very effective bill of goods by eBay in its promotion of the GSP.  

In the short run, I think it's true that many US sellers, not being comfortable or familiar (or even happy about) selling internationally, are going to be delighted to have someone else take all the trouble out of their hands, and may even add international shipping where they didn't offer it previously (as you probably know, many US sellers won't ship outside the US).  US sellers, after all, don't really need international sales the way we Canadians do.  And I imagine that US sellers, unlike Canadians, are a little uncomfortable dealing with anything that is not "American", which is why "international" sales for a lot of US Sellers means primarily Canada - safe, similar, somewhat familiar.  I think P-B realized there was a market to be tapped there, even if ever so fleetingly until the tap runs dry. 

What US Sellers probably rarely understand however is the effect of the GSP at the buyers' end.  There may be some added sales initially (no doubt because of the way eBay promotes the GSP to buyers on the GSP listings -- "Taxes and duties included!" etc.) but I believe in the long run US sellers will see international sales drop off drastically once buyers learn the reality.  

This is why I say the programme is a dud: it's designed to go off like a rocket but the long-term effect is bad, for buyers, for sellers, and for eBay itself.  It looks to me like just so much fast money being made by P-B, another reason why I assume P-B must be sharing some of that cash.  

There is something of the snake-oil sales salesman in all of this: convince people they need it, (but don't tell them exactly what's in it, or what effect it will have), sell it, then move on, ignoring the consequences left behind, and this is what I mainly find distasteful about the GSP.  There is ethical money-making, and then there is this kind of money-making.  The GSP is the latter. 

There is also no such thing as a contract without some sort of consideration.  So there is no question in my mind but that eBay is getting money out of the GSP, whether a big up-front signing fee for the use of its e-platform, or transaction-by-transaction fees.  I imagine someone who knows eBay better could calculate what the potential earnings might be on hundreds of thousands of initial GSP transactions.  I expect EBay is making money on 2 parties, rather than 1, on every one of those sales: seller (listing fees/FVFs) and P-B (contract fees).  

Seen in this light, why wouldn't eBay push the programme on sellers?  It doesn't cost sellers anything in the short run , so eBay can sell it as a beneficial product.  It also makes sense if you're making money in the background to keep the final tally from the buyer until it's too late for him to back out of the transaction.  The buyer must trust the programme to accurately and fairly add on taxes and fees, yet the buyer has no prior review of those charges? -- Please!  If eBay can provide calculated shipping, I'm sure they could have provided a review screen for the GSP, based on the buyer's actual location. 

In this regard, I've seen many posts by US sellers who are shocked to find out "after the fact" what their buyers ended up actually paying for a, let's say, $50 item.  I've also seen many who are completely flummoxed about how to get out of the programme once they're caught in it.  Sadly, many would like to accommodate buyers' requests, but just can't seem to manage to figure out how.  

I doubt that ebay cares about PB's status. In reality, ebay wants to make more money...as we all do. If more U.S. sellers selling outside of the U.S. results in more sales, ebay receives more fees. From our point of view, it is more likely that less international buyers will purchase from the U.S. because of GSP...obviously ebay looks at it differently. Maybe they'll decide that we're right and that the program is a flop. Or perhaps it is working well for them in other countries. We're a small portion of the ebay world so what works for us, may not be true for everyone.

For the reasons I mentioned above, I think eBay cares very much about its contract with P-B and the money it makes from it, at least in the short run, whether a signing fee, or a transaction-by-transaction commission.  

If eBay itself is now invested, via contract, in the GSP, it must therefore ensure US sellers opt in to the greatest extent possible.  I've seen comments on the US Seller boards about sellers now finding themselves "automatically" opted in, and GSP suddenly appearing on all their listings.  

This tells me there is a certain desperation on the part of eBay to promote the GSP and make sure it works.  I've seen enough large commercial contracts in my time to make an educated guess that such promotional performance was a specific term of the contract with P-B.  And if US sellers could easily opt out of the GSP, eBay would not only lose its share of the gains, but may find itself in breach of contract.  

"Scam" may not be the right word for the GSP, but "fishy" certainly is. 

So, the truly intriguing questions in my mind are this: (1) Has eBay realized its error in getting into bed with P-B; (2) How long is that contract? and (3) Is eBay even legally able to alter the programme under the contract?  Perhaps eBay itself has become caught in its own quick bucks money-making scheme, and is now obliged by law to see it through.  This would explain the measures it's been taking to ensure US sellers opt in and that the door marked "opt out" is very difficult for sellers to find. To my mind, there is no other explanation for this "shoot-yourself-in-the-foot" activity on the part of eBay. 

As a final note, I see on eBay.com an announcement that the GSP is soon going to be available for Russia, no doubt because eBay needs to add new destinations for the GSP, having tapped out simpler markets. Have fun with that one!