US Buyer bought 230$ camera in August. Unauthorized payment claim from PayPal today.

[vip-marketplace]

Hi!

So I sold a 230$ camera to a US buyer 6 months ago. I bought shipping using PayPal but didn't use a tracked method.

Today I received a message from PayPal letting me know about the claim on my account.

The sale is so old I'm unable to find it in eBay but a PayPal rep told me what the transaction was about.

She told me since I don't have tracking I'm most likely out of luck.

What do you guys think? Can I ask PayPal for her contact information and call her? Could it be that she simply forgot what the transaction was for... or is she just a thieft?

What would you do?

[ypdc_dennis]

My thought is what does tracking have to do with this claim?

This is not a claim for Item-Not-Received (for which tracking is important).

Did you buy the shipping label through PayPal or Shippo?

Both should still have where it was shipped to. If to the buyer's paypal address it is not unauthorized.

Additional: Did the buyer leave any feedback?

-..-

[vip-marketplace]

Hi!

I thought the same and told the PayPal representative it wasn't an IND case so tracking shouldn't be relevant but he says without tracking I'm not covered by PayPal's seller protection.

And yes I did purchase the shipping through PayPal / Shippo.

The order is so old I am unable to find if I got a feedback for this purchase.

[reallynicestamps]

Small Packet Air is the only untracked US parcel service.

It 'might' help if you can find your receipt and give PP the bar code number.

I know it's not tracking, it's an internal bookkeeping number, but smoke and mirrors, it might persuade the PP rep that you actually did ship.

You might also ask the PP rep to insist that the complainant return the unwanted and unordered camera before refunding.

I'm not saying it will work, but it's probably worth a try.

Be willing to pay return postage.

Sigh. The difference between tracked and untracked is about $5.

Oh yes. Do you use Cookie Jar Insurance to cover scams losses like this?

[jt-libra]

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@ypdc_dennis wrote:

Did you buy the shipping label through PayPal or Shippo?

Both should still have where it was shipped to. If to the buyer's paypal address it is not unauthorized.

Additional: Did the buyer leave any feedback?

-..-

 Obviously, this makes sense but it doesn't matter.  I lost an unauthorized purchase claim where the item was shipped to the buyer's address and the buyer left positive feedback AND an e-mail thanking me for the lovely item.  Two months later, she claimed she did not authorize this purchase.  The value of the item was much less than the OP's camera.  I hope he/she gets this resolved in their favour.

(I haven't visited the Boards for a few days, so this is my first time seeing the new format.   It will take a couple of days to get used to.)

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[ricarmic]

I had a similar situation where the item arrived, the buyer left positive feedback and subsequently there was an unauthorized payment claim.

In my case, I was still able to send the buyer a message within ebay.

It turns out the buyer had an unauthorized purchase on their card, when they advised the credit card company about the 1 (yes 1) unauthorized charge, the credit card company automagically processed ALL their purchases as unauthorized purchases meaning there was a large number of authorized purchases charged back.

The buyer was very irritated at the credit card company and they were eventually able to pay me again when they received their replacement card.

I would do what you can to contact the buyer directly. It is entirely possible as was the case for me that the buyer does not know that your transaction was charged back.....

[momcqueen]

Woah.

I once had a charge on my credit card materialize that I didn't recognize (it turns out the merchant charged me in December for an item I'd bought in September) but in the 24 hours that it took to figure that out, the credit card company completely cancelled my card and I had to wait 10 business days to receive another at which point all my automatic payments went wonky and were subsequently rejected because that card no longer existed. It was a major pain in my butt, and I was not a happy camper. Particularly because I hadn't called to dispute the charge, merely to ask for more information on it. An overabundance of caution on the part of the credit card company created for me quite the adminsitrative nightmare. But that's the nature of a chargeback, I suppose, it causes pain for everyone involved. 

[vip-marketplace]

I was able to send a message to the buyer a few hours ago using the eBay ID a PayPal rep finally accepted to give me (because the order is so old I couldn't find anything in my eBay's history).

I explained her what the transaction was about (purchase of a camera) and threatened (politely) to contact the police for theft is she didn't call her bank / credit card and PayPal to cancel this claim now that she knew what the transaction was for.

My hopes aren't very high though...

I also do have the shipping label that I bought using PayPal btw. It was shipped via airmail (no tracking) but it does have a "Delivery Scan NO". I mentionned this the the rep but he told me the case was already being reviewed by a senior investigator and only a hard tracking would make a difference.

It's infuriating that PayPal's doing everything to avoid helping me with the claim. The tracking is COMPLETELY unrelated to this case. It's so obvious it's just an excuse.

[ricarmic]

Personally I wouldn't have included any (even polite) threats in the initial contact, because if it is a scammer, it has little to no impact (they already know it wasn't tracked), if it isn't a scammer it puts the honest person off which might make the rest of the resolution process more difficult.

[vip-marketplace]

I don't know... I think this buyer needs an incentive to take the time to call her bank / credit card an PayPal and cancel this claim.

Knowing if she doesn't I will contact the police might get her to move. Otherwise I'm not to sure what I could have said. I think it's more effective than simply saying "could you please?".

[pjcdn2005]

I agree that threatening that you would go to the police was not a good idea especially since you are at the mercy of the buyer at this point.

The tracking number has everything to do with an unauthorized chargeback. The only thing needed to win one of those is to show that the item was shipped and/or received at the payment address.  If you show Paypal that you did purchase a label for that address, they 'might' rule in your favour but technically that isn't proof that the item was actually mailed since there are no scans. But they do sometimes rule in the sellers favor in situations like this.

If you decide to go ahead and refund before paypal has completed their investigation then you won't be charged a $20 chargeback fee. If you let them investigate and you lose, you will likely be charged the fee and will have to refund. If you win the case, the chargeback fee should be waived.

[pjcdn2005]

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@vip-marketplace wrote:

I don't know... I think this buyer needs an incentive to take the time to call her bank / credit card an PayPal and cancel this claim.

Knowing if she doesn't I will contact the police might get her to move. Otherwise I'm not to sure what I could have said. I think it's more effective than simply saying "could you please?".

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You have no way to prove that the product was received by them so threatening to go to the police is really an empty threat imo.

[ricarmic]

I looked to see if I kept the note, sometimes I find them useful if it happens again, but alas I didn't.

Normally I word the initial letter something like: I received a charge back notice today regarding "blah blah" transaction and the funds have been withdrawn from my PAYPAL account for it. I noticed the positive feedback provided earlier for this transaction, so everything looked to be ok. Please advise of the status or if you need more information from me when you have a chance and have a great day!

If there was no response after a couple days, then I'd consider sending a little more assertive note (thankfully I don't recall ever having the buyer not respond) so that hasn't been tested by me yet....

[vip-marketplace]

I have to disagree.

Tracking has nothing to do with this.

Whether she got the camera or not is not what's up for debate with this case.

She says she's not the one who made the order - not that she didn't receive it.

The tracking requirement is this case is just an arbitrary requirement used as an unrelated excuse by PayPal. In a INR case of course that would make sens. But in a "Unauthorized payment claim", not at all.

[femmefan1946]

She says she's not the one who made the order - not that she didn't receive it.

Ummm...but...

IF there HAD been an unauthorized transaction, the scammer would not have the camera sent to the complainant.

He would have it sent to his own address.

So the tracking (or even the shipping label w/o tracking) would be an indication that there was a third party (a scammer) involved between the honest buyer and the innocent seller.

Which I guess leaves the question, has she said she DID receive it? Has she been asked to return it? Has she offered to return it?

Or is she leaving the current location of the camera in the wind?

[ypdc_dennis]

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@vip-marketplace wrote:

The order is so old I am unable to find if I got a feedback for this purchase.

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You can see the buyer's ebay ID with your paypal transaction.

The ID is not hidden when you view your own feedback and for that matter the title of the item that was sold is also viewable.

August would be between the "Detailed item information is not available for the following items because the Feedback is over 90 days old." divider and the point where "When:" switches from "During past 6 months" to "During past year"

[hlmacdon]

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@vip-marketplace wrote:

I have to disagree.

Tracking has nothing to do with this.

Whether she got the camera or not is not what's up for debate with this case.

She says she's not the one who made the order - not that she didn't receive it.

The tracking requirement is this case is just an arbitrary requirement used as an unrelated excuse by PayPal. In a INR case of course that would make sens. But in a "Unauthorized payment claim", not at all.

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The tracking is relevant as it is one of things you'll be ask to provide by any merchant account to provide and is the easiest way to resolve this sort of claim. Feedback or messages are only helpful to a degree an account can be bought or use stolen credit cards/paypal accounts. Without tracking or the account/cardholder removing their claim paypal will generally not be in a position to win the chargeback on your behalf. The industry standard for an online sale at a minimum would be to provide a copy of the sales record and proof of delivery (typically with signature of receiving party). Tracking is a difficult one for Canadian sellers given some of the challenges with costs so this is one of things that can be a mine field for sellers given the 180 day period.

[widgetc]

If I remember correctly tracking is relevant because a condition of the seller guarantee is that you are covered for charge backs if you sent it with tracking to the paypal address. Basically it is like a condition on an insurance policy. Paypal is out the money if they cover the cost so they insist on all conditions  being met and tracking is one of them. Basically it gives them ar eason not to cover this item and pads their bottom line.