eBay helped thieves steal from me!

[saigongeek]

I'm baffled at the outcome of this result.

So I listed an item which included the eBay general description in it. At the bottom of the eBay description, it stated what was included in the lot. ex. Batteries, Charger, Stand. ( I didn't notice this in the eBay description.) 

My description stated the item that was for sale and to look at the picture for a better idea of what the bidder would be getting.

(I now know to be more descriptive.) 

I chose the "No Returns" Option and listed the item.

A bidder used the Buy It Now option and purchased the item and immediately started demanding faster shipping. I shipped it to the buy and he asked where the charger, batteries and stand were. I said that the lot only included what was only was in the picture as stated in my description.  

The bidder escalated it to eBay, and eBay found the bidder in favor saying the confusion "Wasn't the bidder's fault." eBay refunded his money and the bidder got to keep the item.

Can someone explain to me how this is possible?

Not only am I out the money for the item, but now I lost the item as well.. If that doesn't sounds like thievery, I don't know what does.

Has anyone ever tried to demand a refund from a store without the return of the item?

[alli_c6]

It seems eBay/paypal has recently been to quick to come to conclusion in terms of resolving item not received and item not as described cases without thoroughly reviewing the entire situation. Its as if they quickly skim over the details of the case make a quick decision and move on to the next case (often in favour of the buyer).

There has even been instances lately posted on the forums where the item is still in transit with a legitimate tracking number and the eBay still refunding the money. 

[pierrelebel]

"There has even been instances lately posted on the forums"

A word of caution here: do not believe every word of every complaint you read on the internet or eBay's discussion board.  These complaints often present one side of the story.  For example, as you suggested, recently we have seen posts about PayPal finding in favour of the buyer while the goods were in transit.  However, did you know that the seller was NOT eligible to the PayPal protection for that transaction due to factors not posted? 

It is easy for all of us to feel sympathetic towards a poster (buyer or seller) who presents a good case.  However, we should all keep in mind that the full story may not have been posted.  In case of conflicts there is always two sides to the story.  Often neither is at fault. Yet someone will be reimbursed and someone will not.

No, eBay and PayPal do not investigate fully every case.  That is not their job, that is not what they are paid to do. If we wanted eBay to have an investigation department to study every claim we would have to pay extra fees for that privilege.  That will not happen. eBay and PayPal first look if all deadlines have been met by the complainant and make a preliminary decision on that basis: you miss a deadline = you lose.  No investigation needed.

In cases of "he said... she said..." decision will generally be made in favour of the buyer..  If the seller disagree, they can seek remedies outside the system.

We do not live in a perfect world.

[bb_cool_stuff]

Could the seller contact Paypal  once the Tracking has shown the item was delivered after Paypal has issued a refund Pierre ?

Don't recall that question being posted previously.

[pierrelebel]

"Could the seller contact Paypal ..."

Yes. a seller can contact PayPal if he can prove through acceptable to PayPal online tracking that the parcel was in fact received by the buyer.

Will PayPal change its decision? It depends.  If the seller was not eligible to the Seller Protection Policy (whatever the reason), I doubt that PayPal would get involved and reverse their decision.

Now, in such instance the seller should contact the buyer and arrange for repayment with the buyer. If the buyer refuses to pay despite evidence the parcel was received (not the same legal definition as delivered) the seller can use the legal system to recover the funds owing.  It is a commercial transaction and that is how disputes in commercial transactions are settled.

eBay and PayPal offer limited protection policies, not personal mediation or arbitration.

Now, it should be stated that in some rare instances PayPal will refund the buyer and, as a goodwill gesture,  credit the seller out of its own funds.  However, let's be clear here: whatever funds PayPal disburse as "goodwill" eventually comes from all of us sellers paying PayPal fees.   If PayPal increases the amount of money it gives away as goodwill, fees paid by sellers will go up.

[bb_cool_stuff]

Well I guess one would just have to contact Paypal/eBay & explain the situation.

Yes, I can understand the Seller Protection Policy, but have received a couple of Goodwill Gestures from eBay over the years.

I had never requested them, they were offered.

I guess it had to do with my selling record over the years.

To be honest, I have rarely had any issues once I eliminated South America & Russia even though, at one time, there was never an issue shipping there.

[nuvistors]

---

@saigongeek wrote:

This buyer clearly looks for exploits in the eBay. They knew exactly what they were doing and knew how to manipulate the rules to get both the product and the money back.

Is there a place I can go to dispute this BS claim?

Also, what should I be doing when posting adds to protect myself against eBay and malicious buyers?

---

Why do you think that you are blameless ?

You did not bother to check your listing.       You state the listing said the  items were included in one description and not in another.  You should really start to look at your problems before blaming anyone else.

[saigongeek]

Thanks for you opintion nuvistors.

So everyone know exactly what was said during the dispute. You can see the conversation below. 

Case Closed: Issue resolved 

You don't need to do anything else.

eBay Customer Support has refunded the buyer and the case is closed.

Jun 24, 2014 at 3:07 PM

eBay Customer Support comments: "eBay has decided to refund the buyer. You are not required to reimburse the buyer or eBay, and this case will not be counted in your seller performance evaluation."

Final decision: You were not found at fault.

Transaction information: Any remaining funds from this PayPal transaction are available. View PayPal transaction

The buyer has escalated the case to eBay Customer Support.

Jun 24, 2014 at 12:06 PM

You have responded to the buyer.

Jun 19, 2014 at 11:32 PM

Your message to the buyer:

"Please show a full return is owed by the standards of eBay"

The buyer has responded to you.

Jun 19, 2014 at 10:19 PM

Buyer's message:

"A full refund according to the original policies outlined is the only acceptable resolution at this point. I am not willing to deviate from the policies outlined, those were the only terms I agreed upon when the purchase was made."

You have responded to the buyer.

Jun 19, 2014 at 7:22 AM

Your message to the buyer:

"Hi there, A "No Returns" policy states that there a no refunds. Have you ever bought something from a store and then later went back to the store and demanded a refund without the item in question to return? In your case, as there was confusion with the eBay listing, I will accept a return. Once the item is returned, I will issue a refund of the purchase price of the item. Thanks and have a great day!"

The buyer has responded to you.

Jun 19, 2014 at 12:07 AM

Buyer's message:

"In your policy it states you do not offer returns, instead I am guaranteed refund. I expect a full refund within 24hours."

You have responded to the buyer.

Jun 18, 2014 at 2:30 PM

Your message to the buyer:

"I understand. I apologize for the confusion. Please return the item in the same condition, time and speed as it was shipped to you. Once I have received the item and it is deemed to be in the same condition, a refund will be processed. Thank you, Justin "

The buyer has responded to you.

Jun 18, 2014 at 12:22 PM

Buyer's message:

"I Only purchased this item because as you can see you stated: "Detailed item info Description Two-way Radio, Basic, Color Black, 22 Channels, Frs/gmrs Band Type, 16 Range (miles), Height 2-1/2 In., Length 1 In., Width 2-1/2 In., Battery Type Aaa, Includes (2) Radios, Aaa Batteries, Ac Adaptor With Y Connector" I made sure in the description that the radios came with both batteries & adaptor or I would Never have purchased it, Please fully refund ASAP!"

You have responded to the buyer.

Jun 17, 2014 at 8:44 PM

Your message to the buyer:

"There is no chargeable batteries or charger. The lot is only for what you see in the picture. That's why it says "See picture for better idea of what you are getting.""

The buyer opened a case: Item doesn't match the description

Jun 17, 2014 at 8:04 PM

The case details: The buyer says the item doesn't match the description. The buyer paid on Jun 11, 2014. The item has missing parts or pieces

Additional information: "the item arrived but you forgot the rechargeable AAA batteries & charging adaptor! Please send ASAP & partial refund for the inconvenience!"

The buyer requested: A replacement item

[pierrelebel]

Let me get that straight.

Yesterday (June 25) you start a thread titled "eBay helped thieves steal from me!"

Today, your post indicates that on June 24 eBay/PayPal advised you that no money was taken from you.

What am i missing?

[saigongeek]

That was the reply to the buyer for eBay.

The Paypal transaction shows "Refunded by eBay."

[saigongeek]

eBay Customer Support has refunded the buyer and the case is closed.

Jun 24, 2014 at 3:07 PM

eBay Customer Support comments:

"eBay has decided to refund the buyer. You are not required to reimburse the buyer or eBay, and this case will not be counted in your seller performance evaluation."

[pierrelebel]

From your post:

Transaction information:

Any remaining funds from this PayPal transaction are available.

Have you actually checked your PayPal account to confirm no funds were taken from your account?

[saigongeek]

Yes I have checked the transaction. 

Please see below for the transaction log:

The stars are the buyer's name, so at the risk of having a moderator remove the post, I removed his name.

 Date  Type  Status  Details  Gross  Fee  Net Date  Type  Status  Details  Gross  Fee  Net

Original Transaction
Jun 11, 2014	Payment From ***********	Refunded by eBay	...	$30.19 USD	-$1.18 USD	$29.01 USD
Related Transactions
Jun 17, 2014	The funds that were placed on temporary hold are now available for use	Removed	Details	-$30.19 USD	$0.00 USD	-$30.19 USD
Jun 24, 2014	Refund by eBay To *************	Completed	Details	$30.19 USD	$0.00 USD	$30.19 USD

[pierrelebel]

This confirms that you still have the funds in your PayPal account.

You receive them, PayPal took them out (temporarily) and put them back.

This is a case, as suggested earlier, where PayPal absorbs the cost of the transaction.  The buyer gets refunded and the seller gets to keep the money.

You should be thanking PayPal.

[saigongeek]

How does that work?

In the paypal transaction it says "Refund by eBay To (buyers name)"

So in this case, eBay refunded the user and Paypal refunded me? 

[saigongeek]

---

@saigongeek wrote:

How does that work?

In the paypal transaction it says "Refund by eBay To (buyers name)"

So in this case, eBay refunded the user and Paypal refunded me? 

---

Should it not say something like this:

May 29, 2014

The funds that were placed on temporary hold have been reversed

Removed

[pierrelebel]

Look at the big picture as it affects you - forget the buyer

You received $29 (net of fees)

PayPal removed $30 (gross)

PayPal returned $30 (gross) - offsetting the previous entry

The net results as far as you are concerned is you received and kept $29 (net)

The transaction as far as the buyer is concerned was not reversed. Whatever PayPal did has no effect on you.

[mr.elmwood]

Yep, what Pierre says. To me, I see eBay refunding the buyer, not you refunding the buyer. The last figure is a (+) addition to your account following (-) hold.

[saigongeek]

Well.. If that's the case then I feel like a dough head.

It should say somewhere what the verdict was. It seemed to me that eBay found in favor of the buyer. 

[pierrelebel]

"It should say somewhere what the verdict was"

Actually eBay/PayPal did (as per your earlier post):

Final decision:

You were not found at fault.

Transaction information:

Any remaining funds from this PayPal transaction are available. View PayPal transaction

eBay/PayPal also found in favour of your buyer but since they decided you were not at fault you get to keep the funds.

[saigongeek]

Ok. Hmm..

Thanks for all help Pierre. I really appreciate it.

So it seems I am wrong in this case and didn't understand the outcome. I apologize for that.

I have come away from this with a lesson learned though and will make sure to spend more time describing my lots listed and be sure to check the description prior to listing.