value of bargain item

Hope to get a few opinions to help me reach a more settled way of thinking. Say you buy an item for $1 at garage sale or thrift store and you later sell it for $100. CP international  insured airmail shipping is so high you did not insure it. The buyer claims INR and all refunds are made but item is lost to you (either to buyer or in mail, but lost.). Do you view this monetary loss as $1 or $100?

 

                 Because CP insured international airmail is no longer a real choice, I need to firm up my willingness to 'gamble' on each shipment, especially international.  Your views and outlook will be read with advanced appreciation.  Thanks.

 

            

 

 

Message 1 of 14
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value of bargain item

I think it helps to view it from a mathematical perspective:

 

You had a sale of $100 for which you made a profit, which you have to pay taxes on. Let's for fun say your actual profit was $50 after factoring out shipping ebay fees etc etc.

 

So you're paying taxes on the $50 profit assuming you have $50 expenses against it.

 

But no, it got lost in the mail, so now you have to give the money back, which is an additional loss to your business of $100. (think of it as self insurance expense).

 

So now you have an additional expense of $100 which you can write off against this sale.

 

So in the grand scheme of things you have an original taxable profit of $50, subsequent loss related expenses of about $100 (we'll forget about backing off the relevant ebay fees etc ) which creates a final net loss of $50

 

So from a tax perspective, despite the fact you lost the lot, you're saving whatever tax rate you pay against $50 if that is only compared against the original $1 it cost you you're actually still up......that is one of the advantages of very high margins like you have here....

 

I think it has been mentioned before but (depending on the category) over time, if you sell enough stuff, you will be far better to gamble each time by  not insuring. My own experience is like this. Someday I will update this but here is my self insuring experience thread:

http://community.ebay.ca/t5/Seller-Central/My-experience-so-far-regarding-self-insuring-more-items/m...

 

 

Message 2 of 14
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value of bargain item

Ric is correct, but, you are over thinking this. I am 95% international and my loss rate is very low. My self insurance pays for any losses.

 

You are not "gambling" on each shipment. You rapidly get a spidy sense for which are likely to be hinky and which are not. Sadly, I have had to exclude Mexico, South America depending on the widget, Russia can be odd as well as Israel.

 

I had three parcels go out to eastern Europe ten days before Christmas. I rationalized that all I would really lose is the shipping cost. All three? Zero problems.

 

A guy in Ecuador who really, really, really, wanted something? Peppered me with "Where's my widget"? I figured I was done like dinner. He was a great customer and very happy. A guy in Chile, same deal? Beat me over. $100 sale, but, all I really lost was the $21 shipping I paid. Parts were not that important to me.

 

My INR experience is very low. Much lower than the idiots buying a part that will never fit there car, is not for their, not advertised for their car.

 

I have far more returns from buying the wrong thing than I have INR. The INR fear is way over played to the level of urban myth.

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Message 3 of 14
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value of bargain item

Your response and that of ricarmic before yours are both helpful in that you both stress logic over emotion. I "worry" about each uninsured shipment and hope for 100% arrival on all mailings. My desire for a perfect world of non problem shipping is my frustration and the the logic of mathematics and percentages is much more reasonable. GREAT ADVICE!!!

Message 4 of 14
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value of bargain item

Hi real: Just because I know the math doesn't mean I don't get nervous.... I'm sending stuff to all sorts of weird places lately, Albania, Russia (lots), Nepal, Chile, Brazil etc etc.... and the $50, $100 etc lots worry me more just because despite the eventual "benefit" even if lost, the $$ still goes back out the door today if there is a claim... plus my normal margins aren't quite as good as yours and Mr. E.s.....so I'm a more "break even in the long run" situation....in my opinion, use of insurance is more to appease/reduce the worry factor...we all have our own version of our tolerable "risk factor".....
Message 5 of 14
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value of bargain item

To echo and add to what 'ricarmic' says, remember that your cost of goods sold (in the case you mention, $1.00) is different from your losses on selling.  As far as CRA is concerned, you're entitled to set any price you choose and, provided the buyer actually paid that price, to claim a loss against it if the item is actually lost and uninsured.   

 

I agree that if your margins and/or your volumes are large enough, insurance is probably a waste of money in the long run, but that your comfort level for risk will determine which particular items you might want to insure.  My comfort level stops at around $125.00, but each seller is different.  Mr. E. sells car parts - he can probably always find another one to replace a lost item, but if you're selling OOAK items, you might have a lower tolerance for risk. 

 

Excluding certain countries that sellers on these boards have reported to be particularly problematic can probably help too.

 

The other thing to remember is that tracking doesn't help you if you're shipping items over $325 (or it may be more than that now for Paypal - I think they've just raised it?), unless you also include signature confirmation. 

Message 6 of 14
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value of bargain item

All sales should be listed as Business sales.....

 

 

Line 8590 on the Business Tax form  is listed as Bad Debts.

 

 

If you sell something and buyer does not pay it is a ....bad debt

 

If buyer gets a refund   and that total is not recovered through postal insurance,  that is a bad debt.

 

Your sale is $100   and that is a part of total sales.

 

 

However, since buyer got a refund  it is subtracted from total sales  as Bad Debt.

 

 

When  eBay reports to Canada Revenue Agency... they include all sales.... including those UPI  or refunds as per INR, and without insurance .

 

So when I fill in my tax form... I list ALL sales  and then subtract bad debts...

 

Things could get difficult  when you report sales of $30,000  and eBay reports $32,000... with that $2000 being "Bad Debt"

 

 

 

Message 7 of 14
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value of bargain item


@realjazz-123 wrote:

 Do you view this monetary loss as $1 or $100?

 

________________________________________________

 

Your loss i$1 plus expenses.

 

However, I have yet to encounter even one seller on these boards who doesn't consider the loss to be the entire amount of the refund.

 

Once the money is in your hands, then psychologically it's a done deal and that is experienced as the amount of the loss.

 

Therefore, insure accordingly.       

 

Message 8 of 14
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value of bargain item

Your point is right on in reference to psychology. Once the money has been received ( $1 became $100) , the loss is $100. As Rose said, the comfort level for her is near $125, so I guess if mine is lower, I will need to insure  when that amount is involved in transaction. For me dilemma is whether to sell only to Canada/US buyers where shipping insured is doable and reasonable, but then this removes larger international market interested in what I list. When I decide my $$ comfort level, such decisions will be easier.

 

               This discussion with varied input has been VERY useful.

Message 9 of 14
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value of bargain item

'ricarmic's' analysis (and 'cumos' and Mr. E's) are all correct.  You have to regard value (sales) and losses in your business the way CRA (and the Income Tax Act) looks at them, and the way they expect you to report them.  

 

Please put aside psychology and what your perception is of the "value" -- those aspects have nothing to do with your business records or your calculation of net profit.  If an item sells well, at a higher price than you paid for it, you don't get off scot-free with all the excess -- remember, you pay tax on your good fortune or good judgment, as the case may be (less expenses), so there's no need to feel sheepish at all!

 

The fact is, a successful businessperson will buy or manufacturer items at the very best (i.e. lowest) cost he/she can manage, and sell them at the very best price he/she can get on the open market.  This is exactly what you've done with your $1 item.  The original value is meaningless except as an acquisition cost to you.  The selling price is what your taxes and expenses are measured against.  Cost of goods is a completely separate consideration in accounting. 

 

So, if you sold that item for $100 and all had gone well, you would have had to declare that sale to CRA as income (on your 2014 return), less related expenses.  Let's say, for the sake of simple discussion, you'd end up with a $70 net profit.  CRA would have expected you to pay tax on that profit. 

 

However, if your item was lost (and uninsured), you now have a loss of $100, not $1.00, because $100 was the price at which it sold, and the price upon which you will be taxed, less your expenses, regardless of the original value. In this example, your net profit would be $70, but your actual loss $100, making a net loss to you on this sale of $30.  This is how business accounting works.  It's completely fair and completely logical.  Although my numbers are a bit different from 'ricarmic's', the principle is the same. 

 

Look at it this way:  if you were only allowed to deduct $1 as your loss, you'd be paying taxes to CRA on the whole $70 net profit on this sale, even though your customer never got his item and you had to pay him the $100, which would put you a total of $170.00 behind in this transaction -- hardly fair to you as the business owner, and certainly nonsense when seen in the light of proper accounting practices. 

 

The bottom line: don't create worries for yourself about your costs of acquiring goods -- give yourself kudos for sourcing items at a great price and being astute enough to make a good profit! 

 

As far as shipping insurance is concerned, I think most of us who have been selling for a while will say that real-world numbers don't justify paying for insurance and tracking in most cases.  Even I admit that, but I consider the tracking and insurance I get with the higher services a bonus because I use them for other reasons (wanting to get an expensive item quickly to a customer, for example). 

 

Read 'ricarmic's' eye-opener about that subject on this thread -- granted, he's in stamps, but if you're not in a high-risk category, the numbers will probably be similar: http://community.ebay.ca/t5/Seller-Central/My-experience-Updated-Self-Insurance-statistics/m-p/22247...

 

My suggestion to you would be to try limited international shipping for a while, to the "safer" countries, and see how much business you actually get from overseas customers, then decide whether to limit your shipping to the US and Canada.

Message 10 of 14
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value of bargain item

Rose, teaching university level: business, law, psychology, philosophy, to an eBay seller who is unprepared for that, well, it can be over whelming.

eBay is running own our self employed business. At a profit. A good profit. That is not for everyone.

Like any other business, 10% of the people do 90% of the profit.
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Message 11 of 14
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value of bargain item

As $1. Unless you spent money shipping it...

Message 12 of 14
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value of bargain item


@jg01302 wrote:

As $1. Unless you spent money shipping it...


Until you end up having to spend $100 to refund the buyer when he claims he didn't receive his item, and find you still have to declare the sale to CRA on your tax return.  Then you may prefer to rely on standard business accounting procedures.

 

If the item were never to sell and sat on the shelf forever, the value is $1 (as inventory).  If it sold for $100, as was described in the OP's example, and was lost in transit (and not insured), the loss is $100.  The original cost to the seller has no direct relation to such a loss.  They are completely separate concepts in accounting (and to CRA). 

Message 13 of 14
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value of bargain item

I "worry" about each uninsured shipment and hope for 100% arrival on all mailings.

 

Then insure it.

Just don't insure through Canada Post.

There is a company called something like shipsurance which others here swear by. They will insure one off shipments. (But do pay attention to their 'not insurable' list of countries.)

Or, when you have been selling and shipping for a while, try self-insurance. Add a few pennies to your charges for every listing to cover the very occasional loss. Put those virtual pennies in a virtual cookie jar, in case they are ever needed.

 

If you get a claim, before PP gets involved you repay the customer from the cookie jar. This keeps your seller record clean (pace the new 'defects' rules) and your customer happy.

In most cases the customer is unhappy for a good reason, but you are entitled to ask for return of the item before refunding.

 

Message 14 of 14
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Type a product name