According to Ebay.............Is this fair to sellers ????

[draco18stampsandcollectables]

If as a seller you offer , in writing , to mail item(s) to a buyer using regular UNINSURED airmail shipped at buyer's risk of loss or damage or , the option of paying for registration or other insured trackable options and the buyer chooses the first option , and then claims that the item has not arrived and wants a full refund.......Ebay says that the seller has to take primary responsibility to ensure delivery and , if in doubt , should cover the cost of registration to protect him or herself.

Now, I'm not saying that the buyer is dishonest but , if the buyer is clearly made aware of the available options(s) ,  and still chooses the less safe route......why should the seller be deemed responsible for the buyer's (bad) choice and the failure of the postal system to deliver ????

Is this fair to the seller who has tried his or her best to inform the buyer accordingly ???

I mean why bother !!!

Sure, there is a resolution center. The said buyer puts in a claim and gets his refund and sure , we can appeal the case with an unknown outcome as decision is made by the resolution center people.

Is this not a case of seller is guilty unless they can prove otherwise ?

Am I missing something ?

[nuvistors]

Is this not a case of seller is guilty unless they can prove otherwise ?

Not at all. 

This is a case of the seller not bothering to follow the ebay rules that protect him.

Perhaps you should take a little time and read the rules.

444

[draco18stampsandcollectables]

I beg to differ....I did read the rules and actually recently finished a lengthy phone conversation

with an Ebay agent to obtain clarification and/or confirmation on certain points.

My post was to ask if the rules ,  as written ,  are fair to sellers.

I also noticed that you are a 100% buyer.

I would appreciate comments from other sellers

[cumos55]

Insurance is there to protect the seller.

Seller pays for the insurance.  There are too many sellers, who in their listings,  say that  insurance is the buyer's option... .... That is a big red flag to scam buyers

If you ask the buyer... Do you want to pay $2.00 for extra insurance....  They will say not... and then make a claim  because without insurance there is no tracking.

Buyer wins...

I do not indicate anywhere in a listing if insurance is included or not....

I use lettermail  without insurance... but never indicate that it is not insured.

Many sellers will say that insurance is the responsibility of the seller.... 

that is understood...

and I will never ship anything over $25 to $35 without insurance. 

[cumos55]

I do not give a buyer an option .

Sometimes  a buyer will ask for an upgrade  ... but never without insurance..

My listings indicate everything is insured..... even if it is cookie jar insurance....

Buyers are never given a choice....

Listing an option without insurance... and letting a buyer choose .....is a red flag for a scam buyer...

and for some categories  a non-insurance option should ... never... be offered...

[pierrelebel]

"I would appreciate comments from other sellers"

Are eBay rules fair in this instance?  YES.

It has nothing to do with eBay.  It is mail order business (also known as direct marketing).  The vendor (seller) is responsible to get the goods in satisfactory condition in the hands of the buyer, regardlress of any (irrelevant) terms of sales to the contrary stated by the vendor (seller) in an advertisement.

We live in a world where credit cards are king and the system has always protected the buyer. That is the way mail order business has always worked.

If you cannot accept the concept of seller's responsibility, I suggest you open a brick and mortar store to sell your goods.

PS - Overall, losses within the postal systems are generally well under 1% on average. Sellers choice: self-insure or insure through the shipper or third party if you feel insurance is relevant to your business.

[i*m-still-here]

I think it's fair as well.

As a buyer I've always found it irksome when a seller forced me to pay for upgraded methods of shipping so that the seller could be protected.

In other words, these sellers forced me to pay for something that had no value to me whatsoever, and I didin't want it.  The seller did, and so IMO the seller should have paid for it.

Thing is .......... it's a horrible purchase dollar for dollar.

In any event, the issue you brought up used to be a biggee for Canadian buyers and so it caught my attention.

Now?  Now so much any more.

My buying days are all but over, and I'm pretty sure that many Canadians will be following me.

With the increases in the US international shipping buying most items is now simply too expensive to make sense.

I have no idea if that's because tracking and insurance are now part of the package and couldn't care less.  

I'm pretty sure that most Canadian buyers purchasing for re-sale will probably stop cold.

Personally, it means that I'll stop searching out items and stop buying on ebay altogether.

For me it comes at a good time for a myriad of reasons so it's not a problem.

But............... I wonder what it will mean for Canadian sellers on ebay in general if buyers no longer buy from the States?

It might seem good at first glance.................. but there is also a very good chance that they'll just stop buying altogether like me.

IMO there will be some kind of a important shift taking place........... but what that will be is hard to predict.

[cumos55]

eBay has a very broad scale of sellers  from newbie to well seasoned veteran.

eBay has established a set of rules... that are there to protect the  seller..more specifically the new seller

If the new seller follows through and learns how to adjust  they will be here for a long period of selling.

Many who ignore the rules get hurt, complain with a totally negative view of eBay and eBay's rules, and end up as non-sellers...

There have been several situations  noted on discussion boards where things have happened...

Dramatically -----such as

Sell it for $450, ship with no insurance,  buyer files non-receipt with Paypal... and the money is gone... Buyer has the purchase and the money.  Seller did not follow the rules

These are eBay and Paypal rules...

As experienced sellers we make adjustments, based on what we sell... Nothing is done without adequate thought,  and ultimately experience.

Nothing should be left as a buyer's choice..... and a seller must also be very careful about what is inluded in a description in a listing... No red flags...

[zoomrr69]

Its a rip off....

why...

ebay makes money on OUR shipping exps...

Fair...no....

this is why ebay wants all items sent reg or tracked..more money to ship..

ebay's profits increase...plain and simple..............

[cumos55]

Every new seller starts with the rules

A seller learns what adjustments to make.

and if they are done correctly  a seller can actually do better with each adjustment.

It can be done.... but it does require an understanding of buyer psychology,  and the maintenance of good selling practices.

Use eBay wisely....  learn from those  that have problems.... Do not repeat their mistakes.

[pierrelebel]

"Its a rip off.... why... ebay makes money on OUR shipping exps... Fair...no...."

Did you know eBay lowered the Final Value fees on most transactions two years ago when they introduced the new policy of charging FVF on the transaction value (including shipping but not the tax)?

Many sellers saved money = paid lower fees with the change.

That may apply to you too.

Lower fees were realized for most transactions where the shipping charge is low in relation to value.

For example, a $300 item with a $15 shipping charge would see a net fee saving for the seller:

FVF lowered by 1% = $3 on item

FVF increased by 11% = $ 1,65 on shipping

= net savings for sellers.

Percentage may vary depending on the category, format and TRS status.

The same is true for all sellers offering their products on a "free shipping" (shipping included in price) basis.  They all found themselves paying lower fees to eBay! 🙂

[fernsevern]

eBay is a venue with rules. When you sell you agree to the rules. Putting terms which are contrary to the rules in your listings makes you look like a bad seller and perhaps makes you a target.

Basically you have to accept the rules or use a different venue.

[patken123]

Will the buyers stop using ebay all together? not likely IMO,I am a hobby woodworker,when I need to buy  an item ,the first palce to find a base price is to go to the local big box stores(or their websites),check the prices ( CDN tire,Home depot.etc) then the the price of other online hardware stores,and always,I mean always check out ebay.ca to compare and 60-70% of the time ebay sells what I'm looking for cheaper,if that is not possible then I'll go to US sellers who ship here.

I am not sure if every one does this but still there are a lot of people who refer to ebay to research prices and if prices are comparable,purchase for the sake of mere convenience,specially those who live in rural areas .

[patken123]

BTW,forgive me for not answering the OP's question since it's news to me that sellers are ultimately responsible for items without insurance.  

[i*m-still-here]

Will the buyers stop using ebay all together? not likely IMO,I

I hope you're right.  When I try to buy the way you do I usually get frustrated having to deal with all the various shipping issues before actually making the purchase, but it's different for every category.

In any event it's not an issue for me any longer because shipping from the States is just too high now, and Canadians just don't sell what I buy.

There a LOT of buyers in the same boat.

I do think that the issues brought up in the original post are about to all but disappear very soon in part because of ebay changes, but mostly because of raised US shipping costs.

The gap in cost between shipping with insurance and without is much smaller now.

On the other hand. a lot of Canadian sellers, like book sellers for example, could see a big increase in sales.

Canadian sellers who are complaining about CPO changes should be more than compensated by the fallout from USPS changes.

Should be interesting to see what happens because Americans shipping internationally might decide not to bother with it any longer, and those who continue will see a big decline in sales............ IMO that is.

[pocomocomputing]

"Its a rip off.... why... ebay makes money on OUR shipping exps... Fair...no...."

Did you know eBay lowered the Final Value fees on most transactions two years ago when they introduced the new policy of charging FVF on the transaction value (including shipping but not the tax)?

Many sellers saved money = paid lower fees with the change.

That may apply to you too.

Lower fees were realized for most transactions where the shipping charge is low in relation to value.

For example, a $300 item with a $15 shipping charge would see a net fee saving for the seller:

FVF lowered by 1% = $3 on item

FVF increased by 11% = $ 1,65 on shipping

= net savings for sellers.

Percentage may vary depending on the category, format and TRS status.

The same is true for all sellers offering their products on a "free shipping" (shipping included in price) basis.  They all found themselves paying lower fees to eBay! 🙂

On a $300 item, if the item was sold in a category with the typical three tired FVF rates, the FVF rate would be lower since it would be charged at the second tier rate which is lower.

For example, the 11% used above is the rate FVF rate for Fixed Price - Other category.  The FVF rates are 11% on the first $50, 6% on the next $50.01 to $1,000 and 2% over $1,000.

The shipping FVF rate used is based on the total of price and shipping cost listed. Since the item price goes well over the first $50 tier break point, the second tier FVF rate of 6% would be used for the shipping FVF rate.

So the the FVF for shipping would be $15 x 6% = $0.90.

Fixed Price listings use the 3 tier FVF rate structure.  Store auctions use the 3 tier FVF rate structure. Only non-store auctions use a flat one tier FVF of 9%.

The lowering of the the FVF rates by 1% (and one major category was lowered by 2 %) when shipping FVF was introduced reduced FVF rates paid by some sellers.

However, this was true for sellers with a higher item price and a low shipping price.  Most sellers outside of that group broke even or paid more in shipping FVF.

The purpose of shipping FVFs was to stop eBay fee avoidance by listing a low item price and higher shipping costs. Now all sellers are charged FVFs on the total so all pay their fair share of eBay fees. Before the shipping FVFs, good sellers who followed the rules with fair shipping costs were paying more in fees to cover the items sold by sellers avoiding fees.

[pierrelebel]

Thank you pocomocomputing for taking the time to break down the transaction.

As stated in my post "Percentage may vary depending on the category, format and TRS status.".   It would have been wise to add "and price level".

In any case, your calculations reach the same conclusion: sellers paid lower fees to eBay when the shipping charge was low in relation to the selling price.

In general terms, sellers did pay the same or lower fees if the shipping charge did not exceed 10% of the selling price.

Now, that may seem like a dream for many Canadians who generally experience higher shipping costs.  That is correct.  eBay's system is based on American sellers and American buyers.  Higher shipping costs in Canada make it a bit more challenging for many sellers.

[tobyshitzu]

"The same is true for all sellers offering their products on a "free shipping" (shipping included in price) basis.  They all found themselves paying lower fees to eBay!"

Not true at all, every seller without a store subscription paid the same (if they were the very few with free shipping before) or more fvf as there was no change to the auction fvf rate

[pierrelebel]

OK - I should have written most since the vast majority of listings on eBay come from sellers with an eBay store.

[cumos55]

If buyer does not receive the item...  and there is no insurance to cover this.

Buyer files non-receipt with eBay or Paypal... Seller must  refund....  and seller cannot make an insurance claim to cover the fact that buyer did not receive the purchased item.

In today's eBay... Buyer is protected if there is no insurance... 

Insurance protects the seller... not the buyer....

eBay and Paypal protect the buyer....

--------

The following  happened recently...  Tracking showed delivery of purchase...

Buyer filed with Paypal, and did not receive refund... 

Insurance claim with Canada Post was paid,,, and Seller received insurance claim money

Only then did Buyer get his money back....  

Unfortunately this was a rare book at $195 and buyer was very unhappy with Canada Post....

-------------------------------------

Alhough signature was not required... In future... on expensive purchases, even lower  than Paypal's value of $325 Canadian dollars, a signature will be required.....  

Recently done with value of $300  and borderline, just below  to this $325.... protecting both seller and buyer from loss ... in relation to delivery... if it was a new subdivision mailbox location...

Canada Post had its way of delivering to a community mailbox location in a new subdivision, ....  that contributed to the loss of the parcel....

With Insurance and tracking  the seller was protected against a non-receipt claim....

Buyer never knows how much was paid for a full insured value....

Better safe than sorry.