HANDLING FEES: Am I the jerk? Excessive to charge $10 handling to mail a damaged item in used box?

[momcqueen]

I've made my personal thoughts on handling fees clear over the years so I will preface my question by stating that bias up-front. 

I bought something from a Canadian seller as a result of the Buy Canadian promotion and they charged me a $10 handling fee to ship me something in a clearly used box with clearly used packaging materials which protected an item with undisclosed damage. Do I have any right to feel as if I have been bamboozled? 

The item cost $50 Cad and I paid $23.16 in postage. The actual cost of postage was $13.13 CAD. And, like I said, there was no expense to consider for packing material. And I was sent an item that was bent and beat up. 

On the other hand, a week later, I bought the exact same item from another Canadian seller who charged $54 Cad for the item in question and $15.97 postage but the postage they paid was $13.79 Cad. Same type of used box and used packing material. Handling fee of $2.18 and the item was in mint condition. Perfect. 

Of course I realize seller B charged me $4 more for the same item than Seller A did. Seller B sent me a better item, however, and only charged $2.18 for handling. Both utilized previously-used shipping containers and packaging material. 

Is a $10-handling fee on a damaged $50 item shipped in a used cardboard box 'excessive' by anyone else's standards? Or is it just me? I have not yet spoken to the seller about it, and I have not left feedback. 

I want honest opinions on whether my feelings are unreasonable in this respect, please and thank you.

[momcqueen]

No one is going to tell you here how you should run your price structuring but, according to ebay, 'handling fees' are to be used only to support the actual cost of handling for an item. Not as a way to pad out profits by moving a cost that is supposed to be in Column A into Column B.

The thing that I am going to takeaway from this whole experience -- regardless of how it resolves itself in the end -- is that ebay considers an excessive handling fee to be an unpardonable sin. I was told by Customer Service to Report the seller, but I declined. And then the CSR was all worried that this would disappointment with ebay buying would lead to me leaving ebay altogether. 

Not managing buyer expectations, that is creating disappointing buyer experiences for whatever reason that leads to buyers ditching ebay never to return, are obviously (at least to me) a bigger problem than we realize as individual sellers. eBay must have data on their own of the site as a whole that says, for example, 35 per cent of buyers that complain about handling fees never come back or 40 per cent of buyers who file SNAD complaints never come back (I'm concocting those numbers, don't quote me, they are not real) so that the CSR knows the threat of buyer alienation is a clear and present danger.

My point is that every single time a buyer on ebay is **bleep** off by some seller, we all pay. More than we know.

[i.am.vivian]

So few sellers can grasp the thought that for some other sellers having a happy buyer is a good thing.  For some (a few, anyway) creating truthful listings, running a fair and honest business with a focus on customer satisfaction that results in delighted (and therefore repeat) buyers is a tremendous source of seller pride. 

That, too, can yield a good intake.  I'm always puzzled the way some insist that lying, deceiving, conniving, tricking and fooling to the maximum they can get away with is always the best way to maximize revenue. 

[i.am.vivian]

Not one person has tried to say that the $10 was reasonable.  Its a small matter but I do not believe anyone higher up in eBay would believe that a $10 charge in this instance is reasonable if they were made aware of it.  The example provided by an eBay employee was:

Handling fees are meant to help seller offset the cost of shipping supplies and the actual work involved in packing an item adequately. The expectation is that the fees stated on the listing reflect the true cost of shipping supplies and a reasonable amount for the work involved. For example, if an item is very fragile and requires special care when packing such as building a crate around it, we would consider that when assessing the legitimacy of handling fees. I can't really give you a rule of thumb as this would be evaluated on a case by case basis; these charges simply have to be reasonable to us and to buyers based on the information included in the listing.

Help the seller 'offset' the costs of getting it in on its way.  If $10 was fair then EVERY seller would hide an extra $10 in the "Shipping" charge and pretend like it goes to the post office and not the seller's pocket.  It would be standard practice on eBay.  But that is not so.  According to eBay, " It's against our policy to have unreasonable shipping charges in a listing, ".  

The eBay employee used the example of a handling charge where "an item is very fragile and requires special care when packing such as building a crate around it".   Building a crate around it.   A crate.   Not stuffing it into an old used box with old used paper.  Building a crate.   

The eBay employee then says, "these charges simply have to be reasonable to us and to buyers".  No one can honestly say that $10 in this case is reasonable.  A 'handling fee' has to be reasonable to buyers.   Charging unreasonable amounts if a violation of eBay policy and a reportable offense. 

He absolutely did not say "if a buyer agrees to pay it that's their too bad.  Pay up and shut up, if you agreed to it".  No.  Definitely not what he said.  Far from it.

http://pages.ebay.ca/help/pay/shipping-problems.htm

We can see that eBay wants to appear to be an decent place for fair trade and honest business.  Hiding the $10 and pretending it is a shipping cost is a deceitful lying tricky thing to do.  A newbie buyer on the receiving end of that might not come back and who can blame them.  It is a dishonest way of fooling the buyer.  No way around that, and no excuse for it.

[i.am.vivian]

It could be said that there really is no "item price" or "handling fee".  It is all just alot of words conjured up to give the appearance of real retail.  A seller goes thrifting and scoops up a cart load of prospects, then lists them on eBay.   The equation is not that complicated. 

Listed item price - actual postage paid  =  total seller intake. 

The seller can sort their own costs and fees out of their total seller intake.  To misrepresent the costs of getting the item to the buyer is a deliberate falsehood done expressly to fool buyers.  Judging by this particular seller's DSRs it seems it is not fooling everyone.   Charging excessive shipping fees (roughly 76.5% more than the actual cost) is a violation of eBay policy for which the seller can be reported. 

There is nothing in eBay Help pages or any of eBay's policy that says if the buyer agreed to pay it then they should shut up about it.  Instead, a buyer can report a seller who violates eBay's fair practices "excessive shipping fee" policy.

Nowhere does eBay say "a seller can rearrange their charges any way they want, its all good with us."  Instead there is a policy that forbids deception. 

http://pages.ebay.ca/help/policies/selling-practices.html

[rose-dee]

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@toby**bleep**zu wrote:

" As a seller I would never charge a $10 handling fee,"

you can do what you want, not for you to dictate to anyone else.  Ebay raised their own USA shipping caps so high one could have $10 or more handlign and still be under them in many categories (even using cp to ship to usa, let alnoe usps)

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I'm not dictating to anyone.  I have no problem with other sellers charging a reasonable handling fee if they feel they must in order to defray their packaging costs -- as long as there actually are some packaging costs.  I'm simply pointing out the obvious: a handling charge that represents 20% of an item's sale price had better represent some real value for the buyer or it is a clear violation of eBay policy.  

I don't charge handling fees because I personally believe it is an irritant to buyers and an extra cost that is difficult to justify from their perspective.  I think of my buyers first, and what they expect as good service: "You're in the business of selling online, so why are you charging me above and beyond the actual shipping because it costs you for packing supplies, when you know that's part of the "mail order" business?"  No thanks.  

There will inevitably be buyers who don't look carefully at shipping and handling costs quoted in listings.  For them, the "handling" portion of the cost, once they receive their parcel and look at the actual postage paid by the seller, will look very much like padding for profit, which in many cases (including this one) it is.  Basically delayed sticker-shock.  Which isn't a good way to conclude a transaction, at least in my view.  

So it is, in my view, a misguided, disingenuous and ultimately self-destructive strategy for an eBay seller to use add-on charges to grasp for more profit, especially if those charges do not provide any clearly discernible value for the buyer.  

If that $10 handling fee represented the whole of this seller's profit on this particular item (as the seller indicated to the OP -- if even that is truthful), it would have been far wiser to roll it and the shipping cost into the item price and offer free shipping.  Masking it under the shipping and handling moniker, where the figures won't be broken down until the buyer gets the parcel is just not smart or -- dare I say it -- fair.  Surprise, surprise!

Here's a question to 'mj' -- If eBay obligated sellers to break down their shipping and handling separately in listings, and you had seen a $10 handling fee on a $50 item, would you still have purchased it?  

Would you have asked the seller what the $10 was specifically for?  I think I would have, and might have expected to hear, well, we use extra-strong, brand new Canada Post boxes which cost $5.95 a piece, plus double packaging with lots of extra bubble-wrap which costs us another $4.00, plus tissue paper, etc. etc. to ensure the item cannot be damaged in transit.  Well, okay, at least I can make an informed decision before buying.  And I think that's the crux of the matter.  Hidden charges are never buyer-friendly.   

[momcqueen]

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@rose-dee wrote:

..... Here's a question to 'mj' -- If eBay obligated sellers to break down their shipping and handling separately in listings, and you had seen a $10 handling fee on a $50 item, would you still have purchased it?  

Would you have asked the seller what the $10 was specifically for?  I think I would have, and might have expected to hear, well, we use extra-strong, brand new Canada Post boxes which cost $5.95 a piece, plus double packaging with lots of extra bubble-wrap which costs us another $4.00, plus tissue paper, etc. etc. to ensure the item cannot be damaged in transit.  Well, okay, at least I can make an informed decision before buying.  And I think that's the crux of the matter.  Hidden charges are never buyer-friendly.   

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If Shipping and Handling were broken into two separate line entries on the listing page and I saw there was a $10-handling charge added to the postage (instead of believing the seller was dispatching from a remote or rural location where that was their actual postage cost) I would certainly have asked the seller how it was that they required an extra ten dollars to ensure this item was delivered safely to me BECAUSE THIS IS AN ITEM THAT IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO DAMAGE in transit with even the most slapdash of efforts applied. It makes it all the more odd that this was damaged as a result of poor handling, or just damaged before it was sent, both of which possibilities the seller seems to be trying to downplay at this point. 

[momcqueen]

If the seller, however, could have explained either in advance or had demonstrated as it arrived that this item had been shipped in a box wrapped with tissue within another box, and it was in minty-clean condition when I opened it, I would have let the matter rest. Handling fees are supposed to be used for proper handling. Again, this was shipped in a previously-used box with previously-used packaging material and it was damaged when it arrived. This was poor handling. Poor handling for no additional handling fee is one thing: disappointing. Poor handling for a steep handling fee that cannot be justified is another thing: both disappointing and maddening. And it didn't even match the Item Description! That had completed different Detailed Information, from another product entirely. 

[momcqueen]

The plot thickens: I had to escalate this to Customer Service encourage the seller to provide my domestic Return label. The seller has another five days to do this. 

The crux of it is that the seller doesn't feel the item is not as described, doesn't especially want to accept it back, doesn't consider the damage described to be important because it's not bad enough that Canada Post would refund her money for a crushed-in-transport claim, and is wholly unapologetic that the handling fee was an amount almost equal to the actual cost for postage. My feelings about the item and/or the service as the buyer are irrelevant so far as she is concerned from what I can tell. At no point was there an apology offered for any part of this debacle.

As a seller, I have apologized profusely to my buyer even when I felt strongly that I had nothing to apologize for. Just to set my buyer at ease, and open the door to better communication and a mutually beneficial resolution.

None of that applies in this instance.

Again, I cannot help but think most buyers would have saved themselves the hours of effort spent dealing with trying to fix a mistake (or mistakes) their seller made and would have just left a pile of flaming feedback, and left for good.

This is maddening.

[momcqueen]

We have settled on a $20-refund amount. I can see the money has been sent to my paypal account but I keep getting the same ebay Error message when I try to close my return, like I assured the seller that I would. 

So that's done. Fine. Assuming this is a temporary hiccup and I will be able to actually Close it soon.

Now, feedback. 

Do I leave feedback? What would you do to be fair here? Walk away without leaving feedback? Leave positive feedback and five-star DSRs across the board because it was all resolved in the end? That feels generous to me but to do any less feels also mean-spirited since the issue was, in the end after a lot of time spent, resolved to my satisfaction. 

[lucitabby]

I would leave positive feedback - perhaps "Issues resolved - thank you"

I would leave 5 stars except for communication "4" and shipping costs "1"

[esclyons]

leave the appropriate feedback that you can walk away with, and  be done with it.. you don't want to be second guessing yourself for weeks or months. i agree i would write all is good, and be done with it, you got  back 20$, so that covers your excess handling charge, and 10$ for the dented corner.. it's up to you how you leave star feedback.. but for the trouble you went through, i think a 2 or 3 star would be appropriate for shipping..

[momcqueen]

Thank you, esclyons and lucitabby for the input. I feel as if I have been too closely involved in this situation for too long to know with certainty what is really fair at this point so the thoughts of neutral third-parties such as yourselves is very helpful. 

[jt-libra]

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@mjwl2006 wrote:

Now, feedback. 

Do I leave feedback? What would you do to be fair here? Walk away without leaving feedback? Leave positive feedback and five-star DSRs across the board because it was all resolved in the end? That feels generous to me but to do any less feels also mean-spirited since the issue was, in the end after a lot of time spent, resolved to my satisfaction. 

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You may have already left feedback ... however, this is what I do in this situation.

I would compare the seller's response, communication and final resolution to my own under the same circumstances.  When I get 5's, I deserve them.  I go out of my way to ensure happy customers.  I believe you do too.  Does that seller deserve the same feedback and DSR's as you?  I think not.  Does she deserve 1's across the board?  Probably not.  Somewhere in the middle would probably be fair and allow you to sleep at night.

[i.am.vivian]

Like others have said you need to do what is best for YOU.  I like that "issues resolved" one.  It is at once discreet and revealing.  🙂

That seller lied to you, tricked you, scammed you on the shipping fees, misrepresented the item, tried to avoid offering a partial refund at all (that initial $10 was just returning your own money to you for the overcharge.  Nothing compensatory about it), and insulted both your integrity and intelligence.

You do not owe that seller any favors.  Leave the FB & stars you know they truly deserve.  You will sleep better and YOU deserve to get that.  Its only one FB for the seller and as long as it is something green the stars won't make that much difference. 

You can always just say  thanks and leave no stars at all. 

[i.am.vivian]

And as you know you have 60 days to leave FB after the listing ended so you can think about it first a bit.

[rose-dee]

Keep in mind that you're not obligated to leave any FB at all in this situation if you feel conflicted about what to say or how many stars to leave.  

I think I'd be inclined to just disappear because I would honestly find it hard to justify hitting that "positive" FB button and/or leaving less than "1" for shipping cost and communication.  In my view, this was poor service all around.  Since it's no longer cause for eBay punishment, I might be tempted to leave a neutral, with a comment like "Issues resolved but took some time". 

I'd also be wondering whether I should give the seller the benefit of another FB point simply for doing what she should have done -- cheerfully and promptly -- in the first place. As we all know, those FB numbers are hard earned these days.  But then I suppose I judge other sellers and my expectations of them by my own standards. 

Give yourself a few days to think about it, but don't feel absolutely compelled. 

[momcqueen]

Yes. The case closed itself overnight so that would explain the reason I wasn't able to manually close it myself after the refund yesterday.

And you're right, for all the thought I'm giving to how to leave feedback for the seller, it may be pointless. Feedback is hard-earned here now on ebay and none has been left for me as a buyer. I could go and leave the nicest most complimentary (probably undeserved) feedback in the world, and it would not mean that feedback would be reciprocated for me as the buyer. The seller may feel this was the worst selling experience ever and no lovely feedback I leave for her may change her mind on that. 

That would be a kick in the pants to me but maybe one she feels I richly deserve for having made this all difficult for her in this transaction. Hah, oh well. 

I'll think about it a little more.

I'm supposed to be working on my speaking notes for the House of Commons Committee on Canada Post right now anyway. The committee requires their presenters' speaking notes five business days in advance to be translated into both official languages. Unless I was in a position to translate them myself. Which I am not. I spent too much time fooling around in Grade 12 French to now be good for anything. Good times. 

[momcqueen]

A final entry: the saga has come to an anti-climatic end. I left feedback tonight that said, "Thanks" with three-star ratings for DSRs across the board and in return received an equally-benign 'Thank you' from the seller. 

It's over and done.