Wow!... who would have thunk.....

[audioshack]

News is just out that Belinda Stronach has crossed the floor from the Conservatives to the Liberals and has immediately been appointed Federal Minister of HR.

Steven Harper is reportedly gone drinking... this is gonna hurt him badly.

[hahrete]

She always was quite liberal in her thinking. Not much of a shock that she moved in that direction. The timing is interesting.

Didn't Inky Mark, a conservative from Manitoba, say he was approached by the liberals to cross-over a couple of weeks ago. And he also claims they offered him a cabinet position. Quite similar to Belinda's story.

Coincidence?

[systemagic]

It's election day here in B.C. and, as it happens, we have a Federal Green party insider, and Political Science proffessor, sitting in our kitchen, furiously working the phone. He says that the rumour is that there are a couple of other members in Newfoundland on the verge of crossing over. He also says that the cynic's rumour is that they've already been offerred appointments to the Senate.

[audioshack]

Now why would he think that cynical? There may be more truth to that than he thinks. If not the Senate they would certainly be offered some other plum either during political life or following when they have a pension that makes winning a lottery seem like overtime pay.

I'm willing to bet that there are more Conservatives ready to bolt. There are still quite a few that do not like the marriage with the former Reform. It may not be "who" is ready to cross but rather "how many".

Belinda may have been a small "c" Conservative but I'm guessing that it was just not the opportunity for a cabinet position that made her leave. If the Conservatives were to make up the next government she would have had a cabinet post anyway.

CBC Newsworld is saying that it is because she thinks the budget is a worthwhile one but I'm betting that she feels very uncomfortable with the relationship that Harper is developing with the Bloc.

Regardless, if it does open the floodgates of only a couples of members it may do away with Harper's visions of annointment.

[systemagic]

One of the motivators to cross over may be the fact that the polls indicate that, in the event of an election, the Bloc would pick up an enormous amount of seats in Quebec. The individuals crossing over may actually be motivated by keeping Canada together.

The Newfoundland guys are also likely motivated by the promise of dramatically increased offshore oil rights to their province.

[audioshack]

... and the child care package that has recently been agreed to that has been promised by several federal governments.

I find it interesting that some of the people being interviewed spin it that she left because she wasn't going to be leader of the party.

Who promised her that she was going to be leader of the Liberals?

[shoplineca]

1. Belinda favours same sex marriage, Reform/Conservatives dont
2. Belinda favours youth wing with party, Reform/Conservatives dont
3. Belinda favours most of the Budget, Until this morning Reform/Conservatives didnt (changed their underwear again and now will vote in favour of one part of budget)
4. Belida against war in Iraq/ Reform/Conservatives in favour
5. Belinda frightened that alliance with Bloc will lead to referendum and separation of Quebec with western Canada forming an alliance with the US
6. Belinda can do more for her riding and her constituents as Liberal Caninet Minister than back bench Reform/Conservative.
7. She has been given special powers to ensure Gomery recommendations are implemented, once tabled.

Malcolm

[systemagic]

Good to see that you're still around Malc.

My house guest just told me that he heard last night (at the Green Party party) that Chuck Cadman, the independent, only has about 2 weeks to live. Also, the TV news just told me that the polls that just ended last night indicate that only about 26 percent of his constituents want him to bring down the government. He has previously stated that he'd go along with the wishes of his constituents.

[shoplineca]

Around but not back
Malcolm

[rd1000]

8. Belinda lied 5 minutes after she made her anouncement. Mulroney did NOT call her, and he did NOT endorse her jump.

She is going to make a great Liberal.

Rob

[audioshack]

Peter MacKay may also join the Liberals as well - remember his convention promise to not negotiate with the Reform. The party is now controlled firmly by Reformers which is why so many Conservatives feel uncomfortable with the direction of party.

In fact, if a lie is all that is required to join the Liberals, I can think of quite a few current and former Conservatives that would make outstanding Liberals. Why, Mulroney himself is thinking of joining up. After attacking John Turner in a campaign debate for patronage appointments, he very quickly padded the upper chamber with senate appointments payoffs. We are still paying his "No GST" lie.

It never ceases to amaze me how one party becomes so holy when removed from power. When in power they are the same pigs at the trough that rape the Canadian taxpayer at every opportunity.

Of course, many Conservatives have also now taken the low road and have released dozens of their sexist soundbites which were all learned from the master, John Crosbie. It is no longer about differences in political idealogy but rather the actions of a "ditzy blonde".

[shoplineca]

Rob
Yes she will make a great Liberal!

She would have made a great Conservative as well had there been a Conservative Party with a leader not afraid of a woman taking control of the party from him.

... and where are all the tapes of offers being made to Conservatives giving them Senate positions? Nothing more than BS.

When it comes to proof, it seems that the Conservatives are overly confident that Canadians will believe them at their word.

Bottom line is Harper is once again, politically outmanouvered showing that he doensnt have what it takes to run his party.

At least Mulroney could keep those that later formed the Bloc in line to give him the Quebec seats he needed to beat the Liberals.

As much as I disliked Mulroney, he had the power and respect of his party and of the people of Canada who voted for him. Something Harper never had, never will have and he will continue to drag down what remains of the true, blue Conservative party and its supporters.

There will be more Conservatives crossing the floor if Harper's leadership isnt put to the test soon. I have never seen so many people following someone so blindly as those that believe Harper can lead his party to victory to run the next government.

He will never be elected in Canada! He is but one step of an improvement over Stockwell Day and that is not saying much at all.

As soon as the Reformers, who today call themselves Conservatives realize this and get rid of him, they may have a better chance depending on who they will be able to choose to take over leadership.

Belinda may have been that person that Canada would have chosen but Harper blew that one because of his own political desire for power. He put his own agenda ahead of that of his party.

I suppose that he never learned that you succeed in life by employing people that are better than you to work as your subordinates, or if he knew it, he just didnt know how to manage them.

I am not gloating. I think it is a shame that Harper continues to get his parties support to the level that he does, that they follow him so blindly that it will end up splitting the party back to the Reformers of the west and Conservatives who will end up becoming Liberals.

... and the Reformers will never remain a National Party, a sad legacy to Preston Manning who took the one-time social, unionist Alberta-based organization and brought it to the forefront as a National Party in so few years.

Manning and the original reformers of so many decades prior to Manning can all thank Stockwell Day and Stephen Harper, the 2 men armed with their own political ambitions, neither having the intelligence, foresight nor ability to make it happen, return the party back to their Western provincial roots while destroying the once, well-established institution known as the Progressive Conservative Party.

RIP!

Malcolm

[rd1000]

Malcolm.

Stephen Harper may never be elected in Toronto. That is not Canada. Most polls indicate he is tied in BC, locked up Alberta, winning in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, rural Ontario and leading slightly in the Atlantic provinces. Paul Martin is tied in BC, and winning urban Ontario. Hardly an endorsement of "Canada".

I do have a question though - how do all the Liberal backbenchers who have actually run and won their seats as Liberals, who have fought to keep this government hanging on, who have defended their leaders through all their scandals, who have thrown their votes behind Paul Martin for free, feel about Mr. Dither's bribe using much coveted cabinet position to purchase a vote from an ex-conservative with a one page political resume?

I have a few scenarios:

1. Each Liberals truly believe, as Paul Martin must, that Belinda Stronach is the best person for the job, (including themselves).

2. Her bribe, er appointment, is for the greater good of the party, and thus is the best thing for Canada.

3. Liberal backbenchers are content to wait patiently for their patronage appointment.

4. Liberals are scared to death to go to the polls. (my personal favorite).

5. Liberals are so used to this type of shameless wheeling and dealing, that it has just become another days work.

And I am curious about Jack Layton. He has been whining for seat in the cabinet since last election. I guess he sold his 19 votes too soon. He should have sold 18 and kept one for a cabinet seat. Ohh, if only he had known.
I am sure he is kicking himself now.

I wish Harper would put principles aside and just start making empty promises. Start by promising to scrap the GST. Promise to appoint an ethics commissioner that reports to parliament. Spend 100 billion dollars on new MRI machines. 200 billion on child care. Free tuition for everybody. No more gas taxes. Free coffee at Tim Horton's. I could think of many others. I would have him elected in this country in no time.

Rob

[audioshack]

Oh my...

The words "Harper" and "principles" in the same sentence. Hades has frozen over...

Why is it that Conservative supporters want to paint Stronach as having been bribed? In fact, by all accounts, including hers, she made the overtures that she wanted out of the Concservative party. She was unhappy with the way the party was going under Harper's leadership. She is not alone in that respect.

Is Martin any less opportunistic than Harper for seizing on the opportunity to steal away the Conservatives "golden girl". Until she left, the party had considered her a historical rival to Madame Currie and Mother Teresa. Now she is a "ditzy blonde" that no one trusted or liked. Yikes, another "dither" by the Conservatives. The business community generally considers her to be a very capable business person. Maybe what our government needs is more business people and fewer carrer politicians. We have complained for years about politicians that follow the party line rather than their constituents or conscience. Now when a politician stands up and says "I can't agree with the direction the party is going or with the leader" we feel the need to crucufy her.

Why is it that the Conservatives need to paint her now as less than capable? They can't stand the idea that someone would actually walk away from them on the eve of an opportunity to bring down the government. Her rebuff has cost Harper and his new best buddies (the Bloc) dearly.

Will Harper now make overtures to Duceppe that their two parties should come together to form a single party? Why not - both parties seem to have Canadian divisiveness at the top of their agendas.

By the way, the Conservatives are the last that should comment on patronage appointments. In Mulroney's immortal words to Turner "You had a choice sir... you could have said 'NO' (sic)...". Then Mulroney turned around and stacked the Senate with patronage appointments to long time Conservative cronies.

The existing Conservative party is a very uneasy mix of small "C" Conservatives and western Reformers with a smattering of the religious right, racists and the intolerant thrown in to keep the brew bubbling. When they get their house in order I would happily consider them as a party that I could support as an alternative.

The Liberals are far from the best choice to govern our country but I prefer the devil I know to the one I don't.

All Martin has asked for is an opportunity to let the Gomery Commission reach it's findings. Martin has promised to call an election within thirty days of the released report. Those sound like the words of a man who feels pretty convinced that the commission will absolve him of wrong and pointthe finger squarely at others.

I'm prepared to allow him that. If the commission points at him or he fails to live up to his promise to call an election then (I've said it before) I'll bring the rope and lead the mob.

I can understand the impatience of the Conservative party and their supporters. When you have spent this many years in the political wilderness without credible leadership it only stands to reason that they will grasp at any straw to try to regain power. But keep in mind that a man drowning is a dangerous thing - he is very likely to pull you down with him.

I have another scenario:

6. Harper gets his way and brings down the Liberals. An election is run. The conservatives are voted in to a minority government. The Gomery inquiry concludes. The world sees the true agenda of Harper and the Bloc and the Liberals and NDP bring down the Minority government. Another 12 months and we are at the polls again.

I would just as soon wait until I have facts before I condemn.

[ospreylinks]

I am a Conservative supporter and share the view that when the Reform / Conservative merger occurred, every effort should have been made to find a new leader from outside past establishment of either party. It then should have been a priority to rebuild the party and leader as one.

The answer was not Stephen Harper and is still not Stephen Harper. He has to go sooner than later, but alas, I feel that opportunity has passed and we Conservatives will find themselves fighting an election late in the year with a leader no one wants to see as PM.

I am infuriated by the Belinda Stronach episode. What really aggrevates me is that it was a blatent deal (much the same as the backroom envelops stuffed with cash, only this time played out right on the floor of parliament).

If Ms. Stronach had any moral fiber, she would have left the Conservatives and sat as an Independent, and thus giving her the opportunity to vote with the government and still maintain some sense of character (but I guess that doesn't pay as well as a Cabinet Post now does it - not that she needs the money, but enjoys the prestige and being in the lime-light). Sometime after the fact the Prime Minister could have invited her to join the Liberal Caucus and then again some time later a Cabinet Post...if the government were still alive. In this case it wouldn't reek quite the same as what happened last week.

Realizing Chuck Cadman is ill, why didn't he get a Cabinet Post as well, isn't he just as deserving as Ms. Stronach.

Instead, I feel the PM cooked a deal that should have every Liberal back-bencher scratching their heads and wondering how they will ever get the respect and influence bestowed upon 19 none party members and now even more so, a past member of the official opposition.
I know my riding has a back-bench Liberal MP who is a personal friend of mine (and yes I am a Conservative) and I will be urging him to cross the floor to the Rhino Party for a couple of days and then just before the next none-confidence vote, offer to come back to the fray if it includes a Cabinet Post, it is really his only chance.

I read this board with a certin sense of unease. The devil we know is better than the one we dont? Holy smokes... this is a party that thumbs its nose at the common guy, spends billions on reckless human resources scheems, the gun registry, and now the sponsorship scandal...oh but that is okay.....because who knows what bad things the other party's might do????? Holy crap, what has happened is criminal and people should be going to jail... it shouldn't be swept under the carpet and it should be Gomery investigating, it should be the RCMP.

Why are we as Canadians (and remember I am a Conservative) not standing on the roof-tops and telling all the partys that we have had enough. Demand parlimentary reform, more accountability, the opportunity to somehow as citizens play a larger role in government.

Although I know it will be shot down I for one support...

a) Term limits
b) Recall
c) More Free Votes in Parliment
d) Greater Access and Involvment of Citizens on Parlimentary Standing and Sub Committees


All have their difficulties, but I think the first thing we have to do is get rid of the career politicians..... give a person 2 or 3 terms and then out they go....(oh yes and without the golden pensions now in place).

The PM has stated that he will call an election 30 days after the release of the Gomery Commission report. Meanwhile a faction of the same Liberal Party is trying to have the Gomery Commission quashed? Well, now that Martin has saved his political skin for the time being, what happens if for whatever reason the Gomery Commission never issues that report? Tough to hold him to his word then, and of course it wouldn't be Martin that would have the inquiry closed down, but he would reap all the benefits.

I think we as Canadians have the right to be cynical of politicians of all stripes....

Jeff

[rd1000]

I can understand people being scared of Harper and his "hidden" agenda. He is a pretty scary guy.

He wants to entrench property rights in the Constitution. Imagine, actually owning your own property! Scary

He wants the Senate elected. Lawmakers elected by the public? Run for cover.

He wants to end corporate welfare handouts. Pretty scary, especially if you are Bombardier.

He wants to explore alternative methods of delivering health care. The nerve of him to think that anybody but government sector employees can provide health care efficiently and effectively. (the Liberals just pretend it isn't happening - much less scary)

Harper wants an ethics commissioner that reports to Parliament. Pretty scary, especially if you are a Liberal cabinet minister.

He wants a greater role for the auditor general. Even scarier if you are a Liberal cabinet minister.

He wants to get rid of the gun registry. I know I feel much safer now that half the farmers in the country have registered their shotguns.

He wants to try and salvage what is left of the military. Talk about screwed up priorities. Definitely un-Canadian.

Speaking of un-Canadian, he wants to lower taxes. Yikes! To think we can better spend our own money. Scary stuff.

He wants tax breaks for all parents, so they can choose to care for their children the way they want. Pretty scary to have parents deciding how to raise their children. Government funded centres are certain to be more efficient and capable. A much better place to park our kids.

He wants to maintain the traditional definition of marriage, and have gays and lesbians call it something else. As a matter of fact, we should stop calling them gays and lesbians. That is racist, just like Harper. We should all be called heterosexual.

Yes, Harper and his band of religious, wacky zealots are truly to scary to be put in charge of this great nation.

Give us more of the same! More Liberals! Make us feel safe. I feel warm and fuzzy just thinking about a big new majority Liberal government. I think I can muster up a few more dollars they can have.

Rob

[marcopoloca]

Hey RD1000, Well said 🙂

[muminlaw]

No one has mentioned Belinda Stronach's constituents yet! This is purely hypothetical (I don't even know what district she represents) but if I lived in her constituency and had voted for her as a Conservative, I'd be screaming bloody murder for a by-election. If I'd wanted to be represented by a Liberal, I'd have voted for a Liberal!

As far as the rest I agree with parts of what each of you have said and disagree vehemently with other parts (some things, I sincerely hope, were said "tongue in cheek"!). I too am basically a Reform/Conservative supporter, but ...?
. Glenda
To Golf or Not To Golf? What a stupid question!

[rd1000]

She is in Newmarket-Aurora, just north of Toronto.

I am with you...if she was in my riding I would be screaming too. But she will likely be re-elected. Canadians are a very forgiving lot. Scott Brison (Nova Scotia) did the same thing. He was re-elected and doesn't have half the popularity of Stronach. She also has been given a very powerful ministry. You can bet she will be announcing billions in the next elecion.

I will be interested to see what her ex-Liberal opponent, Martha Hall-Findlay, who stepped aside for Stronach so she can run as a Liberal in the next election will be rewarded with. (read "bribe")

Rob

[ospreylinks]

I wouldn't worry about Ms. Hall-Findlay. The best she could have hoped for was to make it to the back-benches anyways and as we all know, Back Bench Liberal M.P.'s are disposable.

Jeff