eBay

gigabyte334 · ‎07-18-2015

So, had a buyer claim he didn't get an item he purchased at Christmas. Just saw that exact same item being sold by him today. Called eBay to report the fraud since he filed a claim against me and eBay won't do a thing. It's a one of a kind, numbered patch rookie card. No two are alike, ever. The rep even admitted that it showed the exact card, the exact same number, the exact same patch, but since in his case he claimed he never received the card they can't do anything because she couldn't 100% say it is the item he purchased. I'm livid. Even with proof (via his listing of the exact same one of a kind item) eBay refuses to do anything to help. Anyone had similar problems? I feel like I'm dealing with the world's dumbest company.

estreetplazacanada · ‎07-18-2015

I see how frustrating that can be. I have had a great track record selling on eBay in the last few years and I a top rated and power seller with great feedback, whenever I have a customer complain through eBay that they received item not as described when indeed it's exactly as described and I call eBay, eBay reps would tell me that I'm totally right and that I should keep doing what I'm doing but unfortunately they side with the buyer, this has happened few times already. It is so frustrating when they tell you that they totally agree with you but there is nothing they can do, while they keep sending emails telling us "sellers" how they are protecting us and that kind of B.S.

I believe that what goes around comes around and this guy will get what he deserves, one day someone will do the same thing to him as he did to you.

Good luck

mikeandterri1987 · ‎07-18-2015

Why not return that favour if you are convinced its exactly the same card? I know...two wrongs dont make a right.

reallynicestamps · ‎07-19-2015

Oh no mikeandterri, that would be a terrible thing to do.

On the other hand, if your brother bought it for your birthday.....

Now you've got me doing it.

We're not thieves. But we are thieves. Point is, we're not takin' what's his. Now we'll stay out of his way as best we can from here on in. You explain that's best for everyone, okay?-- Captain Malcolm Reynolds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPRlHwwVIug

rose-dee · ‎07-19-2015

@gigabyte334 wrote:
So, had a buyer claim he didn't get an item he purchased at Christmas. Just saw that exact same item being sold by him today. Called eBay to report the fraud since he filed a claim against me and eBay won't do a thing.

Am I missing something? I don't understand how a buyer could purchase an item at Christmas 2014 and suddenly make an INR claim now. There are time limits on such claims. Even Paypal only permits 180-day (6 month) returns, and from what you say he obviously has no interest in returning the item.

Is eBay expecting you to actually refund this buyer? If I were you, I wouldn't refund yet, but I'd immediately persist with eBay in getting this claim (and the associated defect) removed. Persevere on the phone until you get someone who at least understands what you're talking about -- which may mean going up to the supervisor level. Did you happen to send the item with tracking? That should get you off the hook for an INR claim if the item value was below the Paypal signature requirement level (which I think is $750 US at the moment).

And I would definitely focus on the lateness of the claim with eBay, not on the fact that the item is being listed by your buyer, as I doubt eBay will do anything about the latter. They're so one-track minded that they won't be able to separate one subject from the other and the mention of fraud will just muddy the waters. If you can get the claim (and the defect) removed, then it no longer matters if this guy is listing the item.

If that doesn't work, try bringing the issue up with the eBay.ca people at the next Wednesday Board Hour, and again, focus on the fact that the claim itself is out of time and therefore should not have been accepted by eBay at all.

All of the above applies, of course, only if I'm not completely misunderstanding what you've posted.

maggiebvintage2010 · ‎07-19-2015

Go to your local police station and file a complaint of theft and fraud, get a file number, then advise eBay, PayPal and the perp that you have done so. When you go, take copies of your listing, any photos, proof of the sale and his claim of non-receipt, etc, as well as copies of his current listing and listing number.

rose-dee · ‎07-19-2015

Here for reference is the relevant policy from the eBay.ca help pages.

If I'm understanding the situation you've described, remember that it's the INR claim that's fraudulent, so if you can get eBay to reverse that process, the buyer can do whatever he wants with the item. Further to the post just above, I personally wouldn't think local police would get involved in this, as it's an internal eBay policy violation. Instead, I would definitely encourage you to bring this up with Raphael at eBay if you get nowhere with Customer Service by phone.

"Timing

If you open a return request for an item that didn't match the listing description, or report that you didn't receive an item, you have a limited amount of time to take some actions. Be sure to follow these time guidelines.

Timelines

If you haven't received an item: You can report that you didn't receive the item and open a request for a refund after the estimated delivery date has passed. You must open the request within 30 days of the estimated delivery date. Learn more about the eBay Money Back Guarantee."

And here is the link to the policy in detail:

http://pages.ebay.ca/help/buy/item-not-received.html

rose-dee · ‎07-19-2015

@maggiebvintage2010 wrote:
Go to your local police station and file a complaint of theft and fraud, get a file number, then advise eBay, PayPal and the perp that you have done so. When you go, take copies of your listing, any photos, proof of the sale and his claim of non-receipt, etc, as well as copies of his current listing and listing number.

The OP hasn't actually confirmed it, but I assume that when he says this guy "purchased an item" from him, that the buyer did in fact pay for it.

Unless there are other facts involved that the OP hasn't mentioned, I don't see how this could be seen as a matter of theft. It's a matter of abuse of eBay policy, and while I realize it can be seen as fraud in that context, it's only fraud if eBay doesn't remove the claim against the OP. I honestly doubt the OP would get very far with a police report.

So strictly speaking, the OP's damages are the result of eBay's inaction and stupidity in not properly enforcing its rules. And eBay will be compounding the problem if they force him to refund the buyer. If the OP could sue eBay (which is of course made impossible by the user agreement), he'd have a bona fide claim for loss.

If and when eBay does the right thing for the OP however, it's up to them to punish the buyer for abusing eBay policy (for example, by either taking down the listing or removing the buyer from the site). Now that would be the right thing, but we probably all know that the best the OP can hope for is that eBay reverses/annuls the spurious INR claim and removes any defect the OP has received.

pierrelebel · ‎07-19-2015

"Go to your local police station and file a complaint of theft and fraud"

???

Is this "fraud" or simply a commercial dispute over a low priced item?

Let's review.

Last year the buyer purchased the item and later made a claim of non-receipt. (it may or may not be legit, we have no way to know)

The buyer left negative feedback indicating non receipt.

Several months later (April 23) the seller answered to the negative feedback "demanded refund and to keep card, negative left after declined demands" (while unclear, this message suggest to me that the buyer, having received the item by then, demanded a partial (?) refund to keep the item. The seller refused.)

Several months later (mid July), the seller posts here claiming "blatant fraud" following listing of what appears to be the same item on Friday, sold on Saturday.

I would really like to hear from the buyer on this matter before assuming anyone really did commit "fraud".

rose-dee · ‎07-19-2015

Ah, I see, so you understood the OP to say that the buyer purchased the item at Christmas and made a claim afterward, not that eBay accepted a very recent claim. I wish there were more precise details (dates, for example) in the OP's original explanation.

If that's the case, I agree with you that there is no way to tell if the buyer's INR claim was legitimate or not.

It's possible that the buyer was so upset that the item didn't arrive within the expected delivery window (perhaps because he had a buyer and hoped to resell it at a profit), that he felt he was entitled to a partial refund once the item did arrive. Unfair pressure perhaps, but not fraudulent.

If so, the OP was entitled to decline the partial refund (risking bad FB), and the buyer may have felt entitled to lash back with negative FB over what he saw, rightly or wrongly, as unfair.

If the OP was never obligated by eBay (or Paypal) to refund the buyer, I can't see how there is fraud involved. Even if the OP were forced to refund, he should have required the item to be return to him first. If the buyer filed the INR claim within the required time limit, but the item arrived shortly afterward, it's unfortunate for the OP but not fraud on the part of the buyer to try to resell the item.

A lot of "if's", and you're right -- I think there may be another side to this story, however "entitled" it may be. The facts presented by the OP are very unclear.

pjcdn2005 · ‎07-19-2015

There really isn't anything that ebay can do at this point. Once a buyer has been refunded ebay cannot go into their account and take back the money. Even if the buyer had been refunded and there was delivery confirmation a month later showing the item had been received, ebay wouldn't be able to recover the money. In some cases ebay will give a courtesy refund out of their own funds but I would be surprised if they would do that in this case and if they did, the buyer wouldn't be affected at all.

gigabyte334 · ‎07-19-2015

Fraud is fraud, he received the card, got his refund from eBay/Paypal based on a fraudulent claim and then waits 7 months to sell the item he purchased off me. eBay needs to do more to protect sellers, claiming the card didn't arrive when clearly it did is plain old fraud and that listing is all the proof I should ever need that it arrived. It's complete BS that they refuse to protect a seller from a buyer like this. That's a bid big BIG loop hole that anyone can exploit.

gigabyte334 · ‎07-19-2015

rose-dee:

I'm forced to refund someone and he has a right to resell the item he claims he didn't receive but clearly did? He demanded a refund because it didn't arrive within 10 days of the ship date, it arrived after the time frame he wanted it to show up in. He filed a complaint with eBay demanding a full refund and lied to eBay saying it never did arrive, not for the real reasons he said in email (that the card arrived late). I sent in the emails to eBay with his threats demanding a refund because the item was late, they sided with him saying they had no proof the item arrived, even after a Canada Post investigation showed it arrived exactly when I said. Then he turns around and sells the card, yet again further proof that he always had the card, further proof that his initial claim was fraud, yet you're blaming me? I have emails showing fraud, a Canada Post investigation showing fraud and now a listing showing fraud. The guy lied from day one and I have to wonder how many times he's pulled this exact same stunt with how efficiently he did it.

maggiebvintage2010 · ‎07-19-2015

It would have been helpful if you had given more details in your initial post. I did understand that you had been required to refund for non-receipt, and that is why I suggested the police report, since his listing proves receipt (OOAK item). It appears that you were required to refund only because of eBay's policy on delivery confirmation, and have been aware for many months that he received the card. I understand that his listing is the proof of that, and it appears you have proof of Canada Post's investigation confirming delivery. Apparently even eBay knows he received the card, but the CS rep you spoke with was unwilling or unable to go beyond the written policy. A police report may help them to reconsider that stance. Or not. As rose-dee suggested, speaking to Raphael may be useful.

rose-dee wrote: Further to the post just above, I personally wouldn't think local police would get involved in this, as it's an internal eBay policy violation

Police are required to fill out a police report and provide a file number - you can file a police report for minor theft, insurance purposes, solely for documentation or where there is no need for further police action other than a report - in this case, to follow-up with eBay/PayPal/the OPs buyer.

I do agree with your suggestion to take this up with Raphael - at the very least, the OP may receive a detailed explanation from eBay.

And by the way, in your post #10, you suggest that the buyer should have been required to return the item for a refund - he made a claim for Item Not Received, not SNAD.

pierrelebel - the OP stated it was fraud. From his later additional details, it appears it was, complicated however by the seller's demands. I'm not a police officer or a judge, and I don't have to decide if it's legitimate. A police report may help in approaching eBay again to try to get the original refund reversed, and/or to limit the selling account of the perpetrator.

My advice stands that a police report can be helpful in many situations, if only to instil fear of possible repercussions, and as a persuasion to do the right thing. The dollar amount is not the critical component.

gigabyte334 · ‎07-20-2015

I tried, twice. My first thread was deleted and this has been edited by a mod and I was issued a warning. So it's ridiculously generic.

Lets see if I can add specifics without getting the boot.

Dec 15/14 item sells.

Dec 16/15 buyer pays and states he expects the card for Christmas. I reply with a notation on Canada Post shipping timelines for Christmas pointing out that letter mail is not guaranteed before Christmas and advise to send Xpress or parcel, he refuses. Same day I ship it out registered because I have a bad feeling.

Dec 26/14 claim is opened for item not received, it's Christmas, nothing is moving until the Monday and I again refer to Canada Post shipping guidelines. He responds in a private email with some rather vulgar language about how he's going to make me pay and that anyone with 100% feedback is an arrogant you know what that needs to be knocked down a peg.

Dec 30/14 claim is escalated. Item is also signed for at the post office, which I point out in my defense of the claim. He responds it wasn't him because it wasn't his signature. He also sends me another private emailing saying he's going to screw up my 100% feedback rating unless I refund him 100% AND he keeps the card because the card arrived later then he wanted it to and I should have paid for the shipping upgrade to make sure it got there on time, not him, so it was all my fault. Since the eBay claim was for non-receipt, which clearly was a lie I opened a claim with Canada Post and eBay holds off pending the investigation. 3 weeks later Canada Post comes back that on Dec 30/14 he arrived at his post office where he is very well known (and on video) to pick up the item, but leaves when a signature was asked for. His partner (who has picked up and signed for dozens of parcels for him) arrives and picks up the item several hours later that day. Canada Post denies the claim and points me back to eBay with the investigation results stating it was successfully delivered Dec 30/14. eBay, having the private emails and the Canada Post report sides in his favor because Canada Post released the package to someone other than him. He's refunded and the negative feedback stands.

July 18/15 I find the exact card I sold him for sale on eBay and go to eBay now with further proof that he received the card and that his initial claim was fraudulent. eBay comes back with their lame excuse about how even though it's numbered the same and has the exact same patch they can't be 1000000% sure it's the same item I sold him, thus refusing to do anything, even reverse the negative feedback.

Plain and simple fraud.

rose-dee · ‎07-20-2015

The details you've provided make the situation so much clearer, thank you.

It does sound like you've been had, by someone who knew how to play the system, but claiming fraud and actually proving it are two different things. Then there's the challenge of getting anything done about it, either by eBay or otherwise. From your perspective, there are some problems:

1) The months that have passed since the buyer's purchase -- it's virtually impossible now for eBay to determine whether the item he listed was the item he bought from you, even if they were willing to look into it (which I doubt they will).

2) Unfortunately since Canada Post concluded the item was delivered to someone other than the buyer himself, I think there will be little you can do to reverse eBay's decision. As 'pj' mentioned, eBay won't claw back the refund now, and I doubt they'll refund you directly without new proof of the fraud claim.

3) The value of the item. This item was sold for under the listed $49.99, is that correct? If so, there will unfortunately be little incentive for anyone at eBay or elsewhere to devote a lot of time to investigating the matter further.

4) Proof of fraud. While I agree with you, based on the details you've provided, that you were victimized, actually proving, after several months, that the item your buyer listed was without a doubt the same one you sold him (especially if it has since been purchased by another buyer), is next to impossible. The only thread you had in your favour -- the Canada Post signature -- has been broken by CP itself.

Filing a police report? I still don't see how that will get you anywhere, even if it is only meant to somehow "intimidate" eBay into re-opening the matter, or to convince them you're serious. You may find it's just more waste of your time.

My best suggestion would be to try to bring this up with Raphael -- but be prepared that his time is limited and his hands may be tied as well.

BTW, is this buyer in Canada? You mention there was video taken of him going into the P.O., and that he's well known there. I presume this information came from Canada Post? It might help, if you mention this to Raphael. There may be other reports of a similar nature from sellers that could help to get this buyer removed from eBay.

Based on the details you've provided, you've been the unfortunate victim of not only the buyer, but you've also been the victim of circumstance with respect to Canada Post and as result, the victim of eBay's policy decision-making.

You've lost the item and the money for it, presumably around $80 to $100 in total. However, in my opinion you have to decide how much time it's worth spending on this now, and what your best expected outcome will be from that time investment:

- Get recompense for the monetary loss? (Unlikely)

- Get this buyer restricted/flagged, or better still, kicked off eBay? (Possible)

- Pursue the fraud claim? (A far more difficult task)

- Get the negative FB and any associated DSRs removed? (A feasible outcome)

I do wish you the best in pursuing this, but would still say that setting out the details clearly (and dispassionately) in an email to Raphael@eBay.com would be your best hope of at least removing the damage to your FB and getting this buyer flagged.

pjcdn2005 · ‎07-20-2015

Dec 26/14 claim is opened for item not received, it's Christmas, nothing is moving until the Monday and I again refer to Canada Post shipping guidelines. He responds in a private email with some rather vulgar language about how he's going to make me pay and that anyone with 100% feedback is an arrogant you know what that needs to be knocked down a peg.

Dec 30/14 claim is escalated. Item is also signed for at the post office, which I point out in my defense of the claim. He responds it wasn't him because it wasn't his signature.

Had you uploaded the tracking number and when you looked up the number online, did it show as being picked up/delivered. If so, you should have been able to phone ebay on the 30th and asked them to look at the delivery information. They would have then closed the case in your favour as the item was delivered. It doesn't matter who signed for it. It was delivered, that's all that would have mattered.

In certain situations ebay does take claims more seriously when there is a police report number however in this case I don't think it is going to do anything. If it were me, I would walk away and not spend any more time on it. I think that when I looked yesterday he sold the item for $24.99. I don't know how much you lost but is that amount worth all of the stress and time it is causing you? The guy is a jerk and I know how frustrating it is when things like this happen but sometimes all you can do is to try to let it go.

takbak · ‎08-06-2015

ebay is not addressing the issues and doesn't want to remove fraud sellers. it seems to allow customers exploitation and earn commission money. I am not going to buy any more on eBay !!!!