Anyone had buyers charged twice for VAT? (Both by eBay and by customs?)

[msau4301]

Just wondering if anyone has been having trouble shipping to Europe since the new VAT taxes? I've heard some people are being charged twice - eBay charges automatically but some are still getting charged again. I know I saw a suggestion of adding the VAT paid # on customs form but also read that some had tried that and it didn't help. About 20% of my sales are international and I'm temporarily holding off shipping outside of Canad and the US. I have one regular buyer from Italy and I'm waiting to see what happens when her package arrives but it's been six weeks now and it hasn't even shown up.

Wondering how this has been affecting others. Thanks!

[hlmacdon]

Lots of anecodtal reports around the internet, amazon seller forums, etc. It comes down hit or miss as to whether customs in the receiving country can be bothered reading labels manually in cases where foreign postal services are behind on their implementation of the electronic customs data to include IOSS registrant ID numbers.

[msau4301]

Thanks for responding! I guess some may still get checked, even if they all don't. Hopefully the buyers are more aware of what's going on the more time that passes anyways. I'm still hopeful to hear back from my long time buyer in Italy...she'll tell me the scoop anyways....when the packages eventually makes it's way through.

[femmefan1946]

Some years back eBay gave sellers this bit of boilerplate to add to our Descriptions about international shipping, duty and VAT.

Import duties, taxes and charges are not included in the item price or shipping charges. These charges are the buyer's responsibility. Please check with your country's customs office to determine what these additional costs will be prior to bidding/buying.

So while we may want to help our customers whenever possible, it is also important to remember that this is NOT the seller's problem.

I know I saw a suggestion of adding the VAT paid # on customs form...

This seems like a responsible action. If it doesn't work as it should it is the buyer /importer's problem.

If a buyer is double charged by his government, we are not responsible.

[lotzofuniquegoodies]

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@femmefan1946 wrote:

Some years back eBay gave sellers this bit of boilerplate to add to our Descriptions about international shipping, duty and VAT.

Import duties, taxes and charges are not included in the item price or shipping charges. These charges are the buyer's responsibility. Please check with your country's customs office to determine what these additional costs will be prior to bidding/buying.

So while we may want to help our customers whenever possible, it is also important to remember that this is NOT the seller's problem.

I know I saw a suggestion of adding the VAT paid # on customs form...

This seems like a responsible action. If it doesn't work as it should it is the buyer /importer's problem.

If a buyer is double charged by his government, we are not responsible.

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What has happened in a few reported incidences is because the buyer knows they paid previously but was unable to prove to customs satisfaction, buyers have just refused the shipment. Shipment  then get returned at sellers expense.

With Shippo documentation it is possible to mark the paperwork either return or dispose. As far as I know this is NOT possible with eBay Labels. This would be a very bad scenario from a seller's perspective if the shipping was very expensive or the return shipping  chosen was a upgraded premium service.

-Lotz

[reallynicestamps]

I have been asked at the PO counter about "return or dispose" but I use mostly discount postage stamps plus the makeup amount on a label purchased at the counter.

If the item is refused, the seller is not required by eBay to refund.
If the seller decides to refund, she can refund less than the original payment, for example by not refunding any shipping fees or eBay fees.  And there is no urgency in refunding until the shipment wends its way back to the seller.

[fergua3]

I have nearly the identical situation.   A buyer from Finland purchased on June 30, so there was no VAT code number generated.  I shipped July 2.   Buyer opened INR 3 weeks later.  I objected to the buyer, explaining the situation and the buyer has promised to pay me back when the package arrives.    It still hasn't. 

The buyer is keeping in regular contact with me, ie twice a week so i trust him for the most part.   I believe the delay is because of the 2 new EU rules, VAT plus the safety regulations rules.

I have temporarily stopped shipping to the EU as a result.  This temporatry stop will probably end up being permanent.

And buyers getting charged twice for Customs can become a seller's problem if those buyers open INR's, SNADs, or leave negatie feedback because they're ticked off.......i can see them thinking that it is somehow the seller's fault for not doing the paperwork properly.

[reallynicestamps]

....i can see them thinking that it is somehow the seller's fault for not doing the paperwork properly.

If eBay is supposed to add that information, the seller should (like a grown up) take responsibility for confirming that the information is there.

For the others, a refused shipment is Undeliverable, and the seller is not required to refund.

With a NAD, the seller can demand the return of the item before returning.

Even with a No Returns policy, the seller can demand return before refunding. The buyer would have to handle getting a refund for duty and taxes from his own government.* The seller may be required to pay return shipping.

Basically, if the buyer does not return the shipment, he loses the Dispute.

EBay does not use Feedback to assess member accounts. We can Respond to any FB indefinitely.

*This came up a lot when more US sellers were using UPS. Canadian buyers who had to return also had to negotiate with CBSA since the seller had nothing to do with duty and taxes.

[msau4301]

Thanks very much to everyone who responded with their words of wisdom!

[pjcdn2005]

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@reallynicestamps wrote:

If the item is refused, the seller is not required by eBay to refund.
If the seller decides to refund, she can refund less than the original payment, for example by not refunding any shipping fees or eBay fees.  And there is no urgency in refunding until the shipment wends its way back to the seller.

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Yes but the problem in these cases is not that the buyer is refusing the package to be contrary. They are refusing it because they have paid for VAT already and are being told they have to pay it again..plus the customs processing fee.   I have read about situations where the correct info was on the envelope and the buyer had the invoice showing that VAT was paid but that their customs office would not accept that.  It's my impression that it has to be done electronically.  Although it isn't fair to the seller that they are out money for shipping and/or the item, it also isn't fair to the buyer since they don't want to pay for the same tax twice.

I really don't understand why if so many postal systems aren't set up correctly to transmit the information properly, why the EU countries can't take this into account and accept the information on paper and/or have some sort of 'grace' period.

[marnotom!]

I’m also amazed that there’s no formal appeal process in place for this situation.  Are online purchases from non-EU countries so uncommon that the possibility of double-taxation of purchases via marketplace facilitators didn't occur to anyone?

[hlmacdon]

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@reallynicestamps wrote:

....i can see them thinking that it is somehow the seller's fault for not doing the paperwork properly.

If eBay is supposed to add that information, the seller should (like a grown up) take responsibility for confirming that the information is there.

It's a bit more complicated as shippers are at the mercy of the postal operators as well as customs. The postal operators all have to get their ducks in a row to allow for proper exchage of electronics customs data including the IOSS registrant's number. Without that in place we have to rely on customs in the receiving country to have a proper system in place to handle packages from postal operators that haven't enabled the eleconic customs data IOSS information. That is the root cause of the problem, as some countries seem hell bent on only scanning for the IOSS information and ignoring what is written on a label, knowing full well many operators haven't finished their implementation. Post offices in some countries seem to be unaware of what, if any, system is in place to allow recipients to apply for refund of double paid VAT, leading to refused shipments and peeved off sellers.

The EU system frankly sucks, as does the lazy effort of postal operators in implementing support for it, Canada Post included. For now you are better off making your sales to the EU outside of marketplaces that charge the buyer VAT up front.

[femmefan1946]

And then there is Brexit, another complication.

Are online purchases from non-EU countries so uncommon

Yes.

The EU even without Britain is the largest economy in the world. (The US is the largest national economy.)

And every nation (20 odd?) has its own postal system and customs department to deal with non-EU shipping.

[domsvinyl]

because they are all greedy and lazy **bleep**s.

[tuckhouse2021]

Yes I have customers who get charged double VAT. I do the paperwork properly, add the IOSS codes, enclose invoices, place packing slips on the outside, write it on the envolope as well. I have tried all the tricks and suggestions and still customers in Germany, Finland and Sweden are often charged double VAT. 

There is a means that eBay in the respective countries will re-imburse if the customers fill in lots of paperwork but it is not easy or well received by customers who have to do this. There is often a language difference and traslations that make explanations more difficult and confusing.

Many customers do not believe me when I say I have added the IOSS number on the customs form as it does not show visibly. I think this is a very flawed system. I just re-imbused for 76.00 as I didn't want the hassle of telling them how to proceed with a claim and don't want to damage my seller standings, lose a customer etc. Obviously I can't do this often.

This is one reason that I  tried bay labels. The IOSS is supposed to be imbedded into the label itself. Even though there is no visible evidence of it on the label. However, multiple purchases or items cannot be combined so it is frustrating. If a buyer purchases two seperate items in two transactions and pays the VAT through eBay it is still not possible to combine the items into one parcel for a mailing label. They then have doublel shipping costs which doesnt go over well either.

The chances of double VAT charges are much higher if mailing with Canada Post labels even when the IOSS is added correctly. It does not seem to show in the postal/customs systems at the other end.

The thing that works best is to make up private customized lots for indiviudaul customers over the value threshold that eBay uses for the VAT taxes. About 150 Euros or 135 Britsh pounds. Ebay does not add the tax on higher value parcels/lots. They also charge VAT on the value of the item PLUS the shipping-the entire transaction.

If left to the individual countries to charge the VAT upon entry to the country it is cheaper for the buyer. The VAT is calculated only on the value of the item whithout shipping. 

[marnotom!]

You can perfect the paperwork until you’re blue in the face, @tuckhouse2021, but if that information isn’t transmitted electronically, the item is likely going to see a second VAT charge at customs.

The last I checked on this (probably about two years ago), the EU was aware of the data transmission issue but its solution was a temporary work-around that would have been complicated to implement for digital marketplaces such as eBay.

[lotzofuniquegoodies]

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@marnotom! wrote:
You can perfect the paperwork until you’re blue in the face, @tuckhouse2021, but if that information isn’t transmitted electronically, the item is likely going to see a second VAT charge at customs.

The last I checked on this (probably about two years ago), the EU was aware of the data transmission issue but its solution was a temporary work-around that would have been complicated to implement for digital marketplaces such as eBay.

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@marnotom! 

@tuckhouse2021 

For courier shipments they use the long form which is much more detailed option wise. In practice the VAT paid would either be in a certain box or as a line item. With the Shippo form there is room to note. Because eBay labels is bare bones reason why it easily seen. As a side using the the notation VAT paid how is it even cross referenced? What is it cross referenced to? Not ALL ebay sellers use eBay Labels. It would have been much better left in the hands of sellers and then customs to choose when the item arrives it gets collected....or not. This way no confusion.  This is basically like telling a someone you did something and them forgetting you told them. 

PDF version. They are in this format for all couriers with only minor tweaks.

-Lotz

[marnotom!]

My understanding is that the paperwork and shipping interface used don’t matter nearly as much for EU customs as the information being transmitted electronically does.

[lotzofuniquegoodies]

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@marnotom! wrote:
My understanding is that the paperwork and shipping interface used don’t matter nearly as much for EU customs as the information being transmitted electronically does.

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They are called INCOTERMS. (I shipped commercially internationally for 20 plus years.) As noted below it eases clarification. What I highlighted below would reduce confusion if that was noted. Customs should be able to see all inputted info a seller adds. Because everything does not display due to formatting difficult to know if they are seeing everything as typed. eBay STILL hasn't corrected the origin of goods issue that was pointed out almost 2 years ago. I know what has happened is customers are getting charged again at time of pick up. It then becomes a case of proving to customs that it was paid already. The packing slip or their invoice from eBay would be enough proof but they may not be aware of this.

• CIP: Carriage and Insurance Paid to
• CPT: Carriage Paid to
• DAP: Delivered at Place
• DPU: Delivered at Place Unloaded
• DDP: Delivered Duty Paid  XX
• EXW: Ex Works
• FCA: Free Carrier

Advantages and Disadvantages of Incoterms

The single greatest advantage of using Incoterms is the standardization and specificity of complicated international trade aspects. Having a system that eliminates ambiguity between nations has made trading much simpler, especially when negotiating terms. This saves time and money that would have previously been spent on lawyers, who would draft terms basically breaking down Incoterms into different languages.

A notable disadvantage of Incoterms is that buyers and sellers often have different preferences when using them. Sellers, for example, may choose CIF because they understand their shipments better than buyers do. Buyers, in contrast, may prefer FOB for the same reasons. However, the terms themselves are not the issue, and it becomes more a matter of negotiation over which terms to use vs. the clarity of the terms themselves.