Does anyone else think the DSR system is a total and utter farce??

[coolthings123]

This system is totally dysfunctional.   Buyer leaves glowing feedback on one hand and torpedoes you with a bunch of 1's on a multiple purchase and there is nothing you can do about it.  eBay doesn't care.  In fact I think eBay is probably really happy when it happens because they make more money by not having to give you a discount on your final value fees.  I called customer support and wasted 10 minutes of my life.  Their solution was communicate more with the customer and ask them to leave positive comments and DSR ratings if they are happy.  They said it is okay for a customer to leave glowing feedback and yet leave a bunch of low rating numbers.  REALLY??   I have been doing this for over ten years and I am seriously considering calling it a day.  I have had maybe a handful of negatives over the past ten years but in reality these people were never going to be happy no matter what you did.  I can deal with that.  What I can't deal with anymore is the fact eBay doesn't seem to give a hoot about the sellers who in my view are the people making eBay rich.  Don't get me wrong I don't have a problem with eBay making money.  Everyone likes to make money.   What really irks me is in my view just about every eBay policy favours the buyer at the expense of the seller.  Maybe I am wrong.  Would really like to hear your opinion/horror stories relating to DSR.     

[pierrelebel]

Hi gophergamesplus . I checked your recent sold listing 121084819084 for postage stamps.  That is something I know a little bit about.

If I were the buyer, yes I would have left low DSR for shipping charge.  It does not matter that it were stated in the listing, it are excessive. To mail these postage stamps within Canada lettermail would cost $1.34 in postage at most (most likely $1.10 under 50g), not $12.00 (to Canada) and $16.00 (to USA).

A $2.00 postage and handling charge would have been appropriate.  $12 or $16 invites low DSRs.

By the way, there is another problem with that listing. It states "They were carefully removed by soaking in water and drying out, placed in a heavy book to keep flat. These are still usable for postage as they were never postmarked."

That is incorrect. The law is clear on the subject.  Uncancelled stamps that have been used in the mail to prepay postage cannot be re-used for the same purpose.  They may suit some collectors but should not be reused as postage.

Just my humble opinion.

[rose-dee]

I am still puzzled why you seem to object so much to my earlier post commenting on listings by an American seller offering expensive shipping methods, no shipping cost informartion, surcharge for insurance, etc...

Pierre, I think you and I work from the same precept: fairness to the buyer and top notch service. 

Your advice to the U.S. seller was excellent business advice, i.e. if she wants more international sales she needs to offer more attractive international shipping rates.  This is absolutely true.  And it is also true, as I'm sure good sellers recognize, that premium shipping services protect the seller, not the buyer -- which is why I almost always "subsidize" my buyers' shipping. 

My point was that a buyer who chooses to buy an item from a seller offering expensive shipping should be bound by that choice (it is, after all, a contract, as eBay so often reminds us) right through to the end of the transaction, and should not be permitted to use DSRs as a means of retrospective punishment or complaint.  In essence, this is a form of "buyer's remorse" directed back at the seller.  Perhaps it's poor business to charge for premium shipping, but (provided the shipping costs aren't being hidden by the seller), the buyer shouldn't blame the seller if the buyer himself has made a bad choice. It's not as if there is a shortage of choice on eBay. 

I personally don't see FB and DSRs primarily as ego boosters. Good input from buyers is encouraging and satisfying, but I see them as a reflection to buyers of the kind of respect and service they can expect from me.  My reputation, in this sense, is very important to me, and I take it seriously.  I also like the 20% TSR discount if I can hang on to it! 

There is a huge disconnect between the value DSRs have to sellers and their value to buyers, which I believe is at the heart of this problem.  The logical solution would seem to be to inform buyers on the true use and importance of DSRs.  However, if eBay made it clear to buyers exactly how DSRs are used to rate sellers it might open the system to even more abuse.  So, eBay has left buyers more or less in the dark, and left the DSRs looking like just another casual opinion poll, and that's how buyers will continue to treat it. 

For these reasons, as well as the ones I detailed earlier, and the fact that FVFs on shipping have done their job of curtailing much of the shipping cost abuse that was rampant on eBay a few years ago (of which I myself fell victim on one particularly memorable occasion), I believe strongly it's time for eBay to get rid of the "Shipping Cost" DSR entirely.  Can you imagine?  There'd be such an enormous cheer from sellers it would be audible all the way to San Jose. 

C'mon eBay, throw sellers a bone! :-x

[rose-dee]

Of course, I have to add (sadly) that I recognize that getting rid of the shipping cost DSR would ultimately cost eBay more money if a whole lot of sellers suddenly got discounted fees through TRS as a result.  Doubtless this is a big disincentive for eBay to take any action.

Just a dose of reality to add to the above ...:-(

[pierrelebel]

"My point was that a buyer who chooses to buy an item from a seller offering expensive shipping should be bound by that choice"

As stated earlier, let's agree to disagree on the subject.  Post 60 explains exactly where I stand.

[pjcdn2005]

My point was that a buyer who chooses to buy an item from a seller offering expensive shipping should be bound by that choice (it is, after all, a contract, as eBay so often reminds us) right through to the end of the transaction, and should not be permitted to use DSRs as a means of retrospective punishment or complaint.

I do understand the point you are making and I agree that it is very frustrating when we are given a low rating for a high shipping cost that was actually the same or even below the actual cost. But when the buyer agrees to pay that shipping amount, they fulfill their "contract" once they pay that amount.There is no contract that they have to be happy with what they paid even if they knew that amount ahead of time. People complain all the time about the costs of certain things even though they know the upfront cost. It just so happens that in the ebay world, the sellers can be hurt financially by those complaints.

It seems that often the sellers that do complain about low dsr's for shipping are the ones that do not take advantage of the paypal shipping discount or do not pass that discount on to their customers and/or the ones that charge $12 for $15 item that could have been sent as lettermail. Those sellers are competing against others such as yourself who  do their best to provide the lowest shipping costs available so when a buyer compares...the non discounted costs do seem high.

I do think that the shipping costs DSR does keep some sellers in check so I'm not sure if I would want it gone. BUT....because buyers do know the shipping cost up front and because sellers can not control the shipping time once the item has been mailed, those two ratings should not be associated with a seller's fvf discounts or listing placement imo.

Actually....since all of the ratings can be subjective, perhaps none of them should be tied in with discounts or placements but since sellers do have more control of those first 2 ratings, I can understand why ebay has it set up that way.

[rose-dee]

As stated earlier, let's agree to disagree on the subject.  Post 60 explains exactly where I stand.

But let me give you an analogy, and see if I can persuade you just a little further to the other side. 🙂

Mr. ABC goes on a trip, makes no advance preparations, finds himself in, say, Vancouver, driving around at 6:00pm looking for a hotel for the night.  He sees the Sheraton downtown, posh cars out front, women carrying Prada bags, etc., but he hasn't done his homework or made reservations; he's impatient and he's attracted by the look of the lobby and the nice Louis XV-style furniture.  He goes in, asks the price (let's say it's $300), pays it, goes to his room.

Mr. XYZ makes the same trip, carefully checks out hotels and prices and makes his reservations, pays in advance, and gets the same hotel on an internet special for let's say $175.

In the morning Mr. ABC overhears Mr. XYZ at the checkout desk, finds out the latter only paid $175 and is upset.  He pays his bill but begins protesting loudly about the high cost he paid, gets into a physical altercation with the clerk, wrecks some Louis XV furniture in his anger and makes such a big stink about the whole thing to the manager that it results in the front desk clerk getting sacked.  They give him the bum's rush and block him from staying there again, but he sends a nasty email to the media that sullies the hotel's reputation and results in lost business. (OK, I'm going overboard with this scenario:8}).

So, should a customer who is informed of the charges in advance (either upfront or via a quote) be allowed to have a forum to take out his discontent after the fact against the seller over what really was his own (the buyer's) error, especially when that forum affects the seller's status on eBay?  I just don't think so.  The buyer should look for another seller with better shipping prices if he expects he isn't going to be happy with the deal. 

Are we still at opposite ends of the subject?  If so, that's OK, I enjoy the discussion Pierre. 🙂

[rose-dee]

People complain all the time about the costs of certain things even though they know the upfront cost. It just so happens that in the ebay world, the sellers can be hurt financially by those complaints.

PJ, I agree with your comments, and with the above point in particular, which I see as the crux of the problem.  I really wouldn't mind if DSRs would just exactly what they appear to buyers to be -- a casual opinion survey.  Such survey results might actually be of assistance to sellers if it weren't designed to be punitive. 

I accept that some people want to complain, or just feel better if they can voice their discontent somewhere.  It's the consequences to sellers (and the fact that buyers are mostly completely oblivious of those consequences) that I object to, especially where shipping cost DSRs are concerned.  It boils down to the tool (DSR) not being perceived the same by both parties. 

[almond_t]

"People complain all the time about the costs of certain things even though they know the upfront cost. It just so happens that in the ebay world, the sellers can be hurt financially by those complaints. "

To me, it boils down to a management issue  ( read: 'problem' ) solely between Ebay and the seller, NOT the buyer and the seller.  

The seller's anger or dismay should NOT be directed at the buyer who leaves less than perfect, but completely honest, DSR's.  The resulting problems to the seller are a trickle-down effect from ebay's seller policies, and should not be blamed on the buyer.  

Obviously I am not referring to  the buyer who commits blatant feedback sabotage, but to those who submit honest opinion DSRs, which is the point of having them.

Having said that, I don't think I have had a seller who deserved anything less than 5 stars since the DSR system was rolled out.    Some, I wish I could leave 10, and you know who you are 😉

[pierrelebel]

"...he hasn't done his homework or made reservations; he's impatient and he's attracted by the look..."   "protesting loudly about the high cost he paid, gets into a physical altercation with the clerk, wrecks some Louis XV furniture" 

Apples and oranges.  Nothing to do with feedback and DSR. You should try your luck as a fiction writer.

'should a customer who is informed of the charges in advance (either upfront or via a quote) be allowed to have a forum to take out his discontent after the fact against the seller over what really was his own (the buyer's) error"

Yes, most definitely.  You are assuming the buyer made an "error".  What error?  The buyer knowingly agreed to pay $12 shipping for something that should have cost $2 or less.

It does not change the fact the buyer is quite entitled to express unhappiness with that aspect of the transaction. The buyer rightfully concludes there was an overcharge in the shipping charge and should be allowed to express that opinion.  That is what feedback and DSRs are for.

We should not take away the rights of buyers to honestly express their view, their perception of a transaction.

The problem here is that all sellers see themselves as "perfect" and feel entitled to 100% feedback rating and 5.0 across the board DSRs.

Let buyers decide if sellers are that great.

[pjcdn2005]

To me, it boils down to a management issue  ( read: 'problem' ) solely between Ebay and the seller, NOT the buyer and the seller.  

The seller's anger or dismay should NOT be directed at the buyer who leaves less than perfect, but completely honest, DSR's.  The resulting problems to the seller are a trickle-down effect from ebay's seller policies, and should not be blamed on the buyer.  

10 Stars for the comments above! 🙂

[rose-dee]

To me, it boils down to a management issue  ( read: 'problem' ) solely between Ebay and the seller, NOT the buyer and the seller. 

The seller's anger or dismay should NOT be directed at the buyer who leaves less than perfect, but completely honest, DSR's.  The resulting problems to the seller are a trickle-down effect from ebay's seller policies, and should not be blamed on the buyer. 

This is quite true, and an important point.  As I said earlier, there is a big disconnect between DSRs from a buyer's point of view as compared to a seller's.  I doubt most buyers understand the potential impact of DSRs or have any idea how the ratings are tallied by eBay.  The DSRs are presented as a casual opinion survey, which is the problem.  An honest buyer may not realize that leaving a "3" if he's just a bit dissatisfied about a shipping charge he paid, could be enough to tip a seller into a danger zone with eBay.

I have no problem with a opinion survey system.  It could be very informative for sellers, but not when it is used as a punitive system in areas that are almost wholly subjective or largely out of a seller's control.  And here we're back to the shipping cost DSRs again. 😞

When a buyer leaves, say a "2" DSR for shipping charges to express dissatisfaction, after he has knowingly accepted an advertised shipping cost, there are two questions:

(1)  How did the buyer come to the decision that the shipping charges were excessive; and

(2)  Does he realize he may be directly impacting the seller's ability to sell?

The answer to (2) is very likely "no".  The answer to (1) is that the buyer has discovered or realized -- after the fact -- that other sellers' charges were lower for a similar item, or that it just seems like too much money to have paid.  Either way he feels perhaps cheated, but who has wronged him?  His own choice, or mistake, or error, or carelessness -- whatever you like to call it -- in accepting something he shouldn't have, or in just not reading the details that were there.

Nobody likes to feel foolish because of his own choices, and eBay gives buyers a forum to express such upset.  The buyer may not even be aware that his responses have any importance to anyone.  Furthermore, I question whether most buyers have enough knowledge of shipping costs to make a reasonable determination of what is excessive.

I am not at all unsympathetic toward buyers.  I love my customers!  But I do hope that a buyer will stand by the choice in shipping he has made earlier when he leaves "shipping charges" DSRs.  I did a lot of buying on eBay before beginning to sell, and I still buy from time to time.  I've had to admit my own foolishness on occasion in hitting the "commit to buy" before carefully reviewing shipping costs.  However, because I know how critical DSRs are to sellers, if there was no deliberate misrepresentation on the seller's part, I will not drop my remorse at their doorstep.  I should add, on the other hand, that I have absolutely no sympathy for sellers who either over-charge or "hide" true shipping costs.

I say all the above as a seller who has managed to maintain "4.9" DSR in shipping charges, yet I dread those little stars that are left so casually by buyers who may have no real conception of either my shipping costs or the consequences of their opinions.  Will that European buyer for whom I've just kicked in $50 to pay for Xpresspost shipping on an expensive item, while only charging him $38, reconsider his choice afterwards and feel that even $38 is outrageous?  Will he be upset enough to hit the "1"s all the way through? 

As has been expressed many times, this potential for destroying a seller in one blow is so much greater for the smaller volume seller, and so much less critical for sellers with big turnovers who can hide shoddy sales practices behind the huge numbers.   

I think most buyers will leave 5 stars if they are fairly happy with a transaction, but sellers worry about the one or two people who may have had a bad day and figure it's not a big deal to leave their mark on what they see as a fairly "meaningless" opinion survey.  And there eBay is to blame for permitting such a lopsided rating system.

As long as eBay ensures that sellers clearly display shipping charges, buyers will weed out good sellers from bad by making an informed choice with the "commit to buy" button.  EBay should really just get out of the judge and jury business.

[rose-dee]

The problem here is that all sellers see themselves as "perfect" and feel entitled to 100% feedback rating and 5.0 across the board DSRs.

Pierre, I can't speak for other buyers, of course, but not only do I not regard myself as perfect, nor feel entitled to 100%, I know I have to work extremely hard to maintain that 100% and 5 star DSRs. 

It's encouraging to get good scores, but I don't never take them as my due.  To me they aren't a ego booster, but a reflection of the respect and good service my customers can expect from me, and so I take them very seriously. 

[rose-dee]

... whoops - "don't never take them as my due" obviously should have read "don't ever take them as my due".   I didn't quite back up far enough when I revised that sentence.

[almond_t]

R-d - I have pretty much agreed with the points you have raised ( with the  exception of your head-scratching  defense of another   seller's philosophy that so blatantly contradicted your own commendable   selling philosophy )...but you're still blaming the buyer for the impact by low DSRs on a seller's status.  "this potential for destroying a seller in one blow"  ???  

Whether the buyer understands the 'system' or not is actually irrelevant; it's what ebay has provided to them, based on what service the sellers have  provided them. Sellers need to take it up with ebay, NOT the buyers, to remedy what ( I agree) seems to be an unfair situation.    I understand the system, and I leave 5 stars across the board, not because I'm trying too maintain your status ( well, that does  figure in, too) but because my sellers deserve high marks across the board.  

And as Pierre noted  'The problem here is that all sellers see themselves as "perfect" and feel entitled to 100% feedback rating and 5.0 across the board DSRs.'

  I rate according to my experience, and I dislike it when the seller's TOS 'instructs' me ( demands, really) to submit only 5s so that it won't impact their selling status.  That is manipulative and presumptuous; the buyer is entitled to their opinion even if it doesn't match the sellers' opinion of themselves.  

Ebay brass has set the  system up the way it is.  They have their reasons for maintaining it, unpopular as it may be.  Buyers have nothing to do with its implementation, and aren't responsible for its impact.  And just maybe it's not the buyers who are misinterpreting the system...

[pierrelebel]

"with the  exception of your head-scratching  defense of another   seller's philosophy that so blatantly contradicted your own commendable   selling philosophy"

I have been puzzled as well.

Why defend sellers who overcharge?

[rose-dee]

"with the  exception of your head-scratching  defense of another   seller's philosophy that so blatantly contradicted your own commendable   selling philosophy"

I have been puzzled as well.

Why defend sellers who overcharge?

I think you are still misunderstanding, and I'm not sure why.  I absolutely do not defend sellers who overcharge, in fact I get quite angry when I see sellers obviously trying to offset other costs by tacking them onto shipping charges.  As a seller I know what a reasonable shipping cost is, and I avoid such sellers.  I feel the same about sellers who beat around the bush about shipping or set out shipping costs in terms no one can understand. 

Let me please reiterate: buyers vote with their fingers on the "commit to buy" button; they have a great deal of choice on eBay.  I would hope they always pick those of us sellers who offer excellent prices on shipping, clearly state what those shipping charges are, and absorb the losses ourselves.  I would hope buyers avoid like the plague sellers who "pad" shipping costs.  But if buyers knowingly accept full shipping costs on an item, I would hope they would be honest enough not to subsequently transfer their discomfiture for having made a poor choice onto the seller by leaving low DSRs. 

An example of this: a $300 item going to the U.S. for which full Xpresspost cost might be, let's say, $50.00.  Provided the seller properly discloses the shipping cost (this is the key thing), and the buyer accepts it in purchasing the item, isn't it fair to expect the buyer to refrain from complaining about the shipping cost?  I think it is. 

I'm not in this boat, because I always subsidize shipping for my buyers of more expensive items, but evidently some buyer(s) has been dissatisfied with a 30%-40% discount on shipping, or my 'shipping costs' DSRs would be a perfect 5.0.  I wish I could afford to offer free shipping on everything, but I'd soon be out of business.

I'm all for the concept of customer complaints and feedback regarding shipping costs; they can be instructive for sellers.  I do object to their being used primarily for punitive purposes on an aspect of transactions that buyers do have a choice about in advance. 

I would very much like eBay to get out of the way by dropping the "shipping cost" DSRs.  I really don't know what more I can say.      

[coolthings123]

rose-dee, I totally agree with you.  If a buyer agrees to pay the shipping cost of an item there should be no recourse to complain after the fact about the cost of shipping.  I offer an analogy.  It is totally my fault if I I go out and purchase a car and agree to pay all the fees the dealer (metaphorically an eBay seller) has with respect to shipping, pre-delivery inspections and whatever else they decide to throw in.  In the real world the dealer's "head office" isn't going to give the dealer a hard time because I signed a contract (according to eBay you enter into a contract when you agree to purchase an item) and agree to all the terms. A month or so later I have second thoughts about the deal I made and I go back to the dealer who says, "but you signed a contract."  I go to the "head office" and they say, "but you signed a contract."  I say, " I am never going to buy anything from you ever again."  The "head office" says, okay, that is your right, but you signed a contract.  You were obviously satisfied with the deal you made or you would not have signed the contract.  No one put a gun to your head to make you sign.   

In my opinion the preceding analogy is the same as an eBay transaction.  If  you bought an item on eBay because you thought you were getting a good deal....be happy with your purchase and live with it.  If you are the kind of person that wants to quibble over a couple of bucks then by all means buy somewhere else because most sellers don't need the aggravation.  Anyone, anywhere, can find a better deal on something if you look long and hard enough.  

PS.  I am also pretty sure in the car sale analogy the "head office" didn't tell the dealer he was no longer a top rated seller and took away his 20% discount.

Now another hypothetical situation.  I am standing before the great eBay who has reviewed my analogy and starts to laugh and laugh and laugh some more because my analogy has no relevance.  I ask the great eBay, why do you laugh.  I am told you poor fool of a seller.  Don't you realize the buyer is always right.  When you are chosen by a buyer you must complete a daunting quest consisting of 4 challenges.  Upon completion of each of these challenges you will be judged by the buyer who will have sole authority to assess your performance.  The buyer's decision will be final and there will be no appeal process.  Two of the challenges are fairly simple and two are not.  Firstly, you must ensure your item is as described.  I reply, I always describe the items I sell to the best of my ability in order that the buyer have as much information as needed to make an informed decision.   If there is a problem the buyer can return it for a full refund.  The great eBay says, this is good.  Secondly, you must communicate with your buyer.  I reply, I communicate with my buyers several times after the sale to keep them updated. The great  eBay says, this is good.  Thirdly, you must ship the item quickly after receiving payment.  I reply, I always ship the day of or the day after receiving payment.  However, I cannot guarantee the postal service will be as expedient as I when it comes to delivery.  The great eBay says, this could be problematic.  We have given buyers unrealistic expectations with respect to delivery time.  If in the opinion of the buyer the postal service has failed to deliver the item in a expeditious manner then you, the seller, will be deemed to be at fault and shall suffer the wrath of the buyer.  Lastly, you must ship the item to the buyer while allowing the buyer to pay as little as humanly possible for this service.  Your time means nothing.  Your gasoline to drive to the post office is meaningless.  If you have to supplement the cost of shipping out of your own pocket so much the better. I reply, I don't charge for my time.  I don't charge for taking the packages to the post office.  I do supplement the cost of shipping out of my own pocket because it is necessary.  The great eBay says, I have good news and I have bad news.  The good news is....I lied there is no good news for you.  There is good news for the great eBay which is you are at some point will be screwed over by a buyer on your shipping  cost because again we have given buyers unrealistic expectations on what they should be paying for shipping and at some point you will lose your Top Rated Seller status along with that pesky 20% deduction we have to give you on your Final Value Fees. The bad news is actually the good news for us.  

Have a nice day and happy selling.        

[i*m-still-here]

Even though a buyer may agree to pay $X.00 for shipping, that does not mean that the buyer is happy about it.

You can use logic and reason with the buyer till the cows come home, but buyers will still be unhappy about higher than necessary shipping costs.

Sophisticated buyers understand that tracking and insurance are perks for the seller and money out the window for the buyer.

[bb_cool_stuff]

You can use logic and reason with the buyer till the cows come home, but buyers will still be unhappy about higher than necessary shipping costs.

Yes, yes.

Buyers hold all the cards & it is paramount to offer the buyer the best items, service & shipping costs. Feedback & DSRs are riding on it.

Unfortunately there is a minority of buyers that one will never be able to please.

[rose-dee]

I reply, I don't charge for my time.  I don't charge for taking the packages to the post office.  I do supplement the cost of shipping out of my own pocket because it is necessary.  

To 'coolthings' -- Thank you for your thoughts.  I was beginning to believe I might be the only seller who saw things this way, although I think your car dealership analogy was far better than my flight of fancy in the hotel!  With respect to the comment above, would you believe that one day, when my husband had the car all day, I actually walked the 5km back and forth to the post office with a parcel because the buyer was in a hurry to get it and it was a Friday, which meant it likely would not have got to the airport over the weekend if I'd dropped it off by car on Saturday. 

All I can say to eBay and to buyers is that, although they may not believe this, many of us try extremely hard as sellers, and selling on eBay, while never simple, has become more and more complex, constrained, and difficult.  For all the time, effort and money I put into this enterprise, I live in fear of unfair DSRs.  I would say this is particularly so where smaller Canadian sellers are concerned.  I dreaded the "free shipping" push by eBay, because it meant that certain types of high-volume sellers of cheap goods could offer what I could never afford to do, and, as you say quite correctly, buyers were given unrealistic expectations about shipping costs. 

I don't mind buyer complaints (not that I usually get any), or opinion surveys, I mind the way eBay has made use of them. 

I know I said I couldn't say anymore, but I suppose there's always something to add on this subject! 😐