Why a refunded undelivered item (lost in mail) be considered late delivery?

[arteis]

It seems that more and more transaction problems count as "late delivery".

For example 2 of the item I've sold never arrived so I've refunded the buyers.

But these transactions are also showing in the "late shipment" report?

It's probably because of the "Did you received the item before date" question, they answer no which is obvious as the item never arrived! The system could simply not count refunded undelivered item as "late shipped" even when the answer to the question is no.

Also items that are late arrival are considered late shipped which is a LIE!

I can ship 5 minutes after sale and the item can still arrived late but you can't say it was shipped late.

I do not use tracking services (it cost more than the value of the items) so 2-3% of my item never arrived and I refund them no problem, I still save more on shipping. But the standard needed to keep the top-seller rating is lower than the standard delivered by Canada-Post.

 I do not get why item I ship on Monday have 50% more chance to get dinged for "late shipment".

I am discouraged as I am responsible for something I have no control on.

Keven Noel

[arteis]

I forgot, I have another example where I've received a positive feedback but still got ding for "late ship".

[momcqueen]

“I do not use tracking services (it cost more than the value of the items) so 2-3% of my item never arrived and I refund them no problem, I still save more on shipping. But the standard needed to keep the top-seller rating is lower than the standard delivered by Canada-Post.”

Your problem and solution in two words = use tracking.

By choosing to save money instead, you facilitate Late Shipment marks.

There is no one without the other. You can’t have it both ways. If you want to ship for cheap, you have to be willing to accept the eBay consequences. If you offered only shipments with tracking, you’d have to accept the consequences of that decision just the same.

All you can do is decide what’s more important to you.

And adjust your handling time.

[tobyshitzu]

ops recent non tracked sales would be either zero sales if the cost of tracking was added, or zero money if the money received was spent on tracking

op you are still showing trs so whatever late shipments you have are having no effect whatsoever and no reason to care at all.  If you get enough you'll ose the 10% free discount until stop stop counting, which is still not worth changing anything. 

[momcqueen]

If Op is refunding recent sales for loss due to non-tracking, their recent sales are zero MINUS loss of item.

[momcqueen]

My point is that a seller has to pick their poison and stick with it: either they ship fewer parcels with tracking and have no INRs and Late Shipment reports OR they ship many items cheaply without tracking and have INRs and Late Shipment reports.

ebay made these changes so we cannot have our cake and eat it too.

It's unlikely to change in the near future; it seems as if ebay is fairly satisfied with the outcome of this effort to keep its sellers in line so all that sellers can do is decide how they want to operate, and like it. Or not. It makes no difference to me, and it certainly makes no difference to ebay. If ebay cared what we thought of Late Shipment reports they'd have paid heed to the hue and cry raised when this method of seller performance evaluation was announced and adopted two years ago. Or maybe it was three.

Regardless, I didn't like it then and I don't love it now, but I made my internal process changes as a seller to work within the new system of evaluation and stuck to them. 

[rose-dee]

---

@momcqueen wrote:
Your problem and solution in two words = use tracking.
By choosing to save money instead, you facilitate Late Shipment marks.
There is no one without the other. You can’t have it both ways. If you want to ship for cheap, you have to be willing to accept the eBay consequences. If you offered only shipments with tracking, you’d have to accept the consequences of that decision just the same.

---

With all due respect, this is really only valid advice if one is selling new items of some value.  The OP is selling many items under $30, and most, it appears, under $20.  Many seem to be vintage.  It is virtually impossible to play eBay's tracking game in that situation. 

I can't imagine eBay didn't know the effect the late delivery policy would have on such sellers (I'm in that group for the most part) and I don't think they cared.  The late delivery policy was focused primarily on the U.S. seller base, and (whether deliberate or not) will continue to have the effect of weeding out through attrition a lot of vintage or second-hand sellers and/or sellers of small items, like the OP.  Many of these sellers were eBay's traditional corps of money-makers, which makes the sting that much more painful.  

The one advantage the OP does have is his relatively large number of listings.  I agree with 'toby'  that volume will provide the OP with a buffer for the occasional non-delivery or late delivery.  This is truly the only remaining good choice for someone selling lower-priced items, and especially lower-priced used or vintage items on eBay.  To lecture the OP on making the wrong decisions about shipping is not only unreasonable, but harsh.  I expect the OP has been in this business long enough to understand all too well the shipping conundrums we face.  When you're selling a $15 item, there isn't much money to choose to save on anything, or to spend on tracking -- unless you're willing to give the stuff away.   

In any event, that wasn't the original complaint: the OP's issue was with eBay dinging him twice for the one infraction, and I agree that this is completely unfair.  Considering the OP's product line, his selling prices, and the difficulty of shipping with expensive tracking, every defect can be critical.  If this were my situation, I think I'd bring the matter up with 'tyler'  today on the Weekly Chat; he might be able to arrange to have one of those defects removed. 

[momcqueen]

"The late delivery policy was focused primarily on the U.S. seller base...."

False, it was to rein in sellers from overseas who promise much and deliver little. 

[momcqueen]

And it doesn't matter what you think about the policy or what I think about the policy. 

The weekly chat is open. https://community.ebay.ca/t5/notificationfeed/page

Talk to ebay about it. 

My opinion counts for exactly as much as you care to make it count. 

Later.

[femmefan1946]

I don't think that's quite the problem.

It's that darn 'arrived on time' choice by the buyer.

The item is claimed as Not Delivered.

That 'late delivery' should not be used, because it is superceded by the 'not received'.

Technically the buyer is right that the parcel is late if it hasn't arrived by the last estimated delivery date. And probably  possibly the buyer is lying about the Not Received.

It might be worthwhile asking Customer Service to remove the 'late' mark, since the the customer was refunded and the parcel deemed lost, which is out of the control of the seller (but still his responsibility).

I'd also worry about a 'loss' rate of 2-3%. That's high unless the seller's  products are the sort that appeal to juvenile males.

[rose-dee]

---

@momcqueen wrote:

"The late delivery policy was focused primarily on the U.S. seller base...."

False, it was to rein in sellers from overseas who promise much and deliver little. 

---

No, actually, the eBay staffers themselves admitted that the concept of the late delivery policy (i.e. "on-time delivery") was U.S.-centred, focused on U.S. sellers who had inexpensive domestic tracking readily available to them.   You'll recall this goes as far back as Raphael's comments in this respect when the policy was introduced -- if you look through the purpose-built discussion thread on the subject I'm sure you'll be able to find those remarks. 

The horde of Chinese sellers on eBay already had cheap, state-funded tracking available to them for years.  This policy will have had virtually no effect on them.  Few other international seller groups match the size of the U.S. and Chinese seller sector combined, so I doubt eBay was primarily thinking of miscellaneous international sellers when devising this plan.  

[femmefan1946]

And OP sells Nintendo magazines and car parts(?).

So the high Dispute rate is because of his demographic.

@arteis

I'd suggest removing all that information about shipping in your description.

It's in the shipping tab much more clearly.

"I combine shipping" would take care of the entire situation.

Instead use the Description to DESCRIBE what the buyer is getting.

For example:

 VINTAGE CEN 27 VERY RARE CFRP CHASSIS EP GXS27 NIP

I assume that your customer knows what this is, but it doesn't hurt to add more description, especially since the Description is included in Search.

What does it fit?

How big is it? (cm & inches)

Expand NIP to New in Sealed Package

Describe as if you have no pictures- and of course picture as if you have no description.

You could, and probably should, include something like "Using the shopping cart gives you automatic shipping discounts on combined purchases"

On this particular item, I hope you are using tracking given the value.

You can also use tracked services whenever you want, and keep in mind that you can use Calculated Shipping when you list on dotCA.

If you prefer Flat Rate Shipping, list on dotCOM where you will reach more customers in the huge American market.

BTW- the standard English usage is $1.50 not 1.5$.

This is confusing to American customers.

[rose-dee]

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@femmefan1946 wrote:

I don't think that's quite the problem.

It's that darn 'arrived on time' choice by the buyer.

The item is claimed as Not Delivered.

That 'late delivery' should not be used, because it is superceded by the 'not received'.

---

I think you've hit the nail squarely on the head. 

Giving eBay the benefit of the doubt, it seems to me they just didn't consider that their programming needed to be designed to recognize that the two incidents cannot both be possible in terms of eBay's policies.  In other words, they needed "either/or" programming.   So let's call it sloppy and inconsistent programme design that nobody has brought to their attention (up to this point).  Now that we have, let's hope they fix it. 

On the other hand, if eBay is doing this deliberately, it's entirely unfair and should be stopped. 

[lotzofuniquegoodies]

My observation of this ongoing situation is buyers are clicking on the incorrect box when filing these claims. 2 examples below.

Customer A: Made purchase. Item arrived in correct time frame but box was empty on receipt.

Filed a request for a return. (Why would anyone want to return an empty box?) Advised customer I could reship because I had replacement stock. Shipped out 2nd unit. Was charged for a late delivery.(Made claim for postage/contents with package photos and received cheque in under 10 days from Canadapost)

Customer 2: Purchased item and paid 2 minutes later. I packaged that evening and created postage. Before I even had time the next morning buyer asked for a "Return". Their reason. Wasn't in the budget. Okay. Have another coffee and do deep breathing exercises. Cancelled postage and refunded customer for their order. Waited 3 weeks for a credit for postage from Shippo for unused postage. They do not refund. They credit. My understanding for USPS they refund within 10 business days. This to me seems to be another example of a strike for something I had no control of.

I could contact CS with my explanations but from past experience they tend to side with customer 9 times out of 10 which I am learning not to appreciate.

-CM

[tyler@ebay]

---

@arteis wrote:

It seems that more and more transaction problems count as "late delivery".

For example 2 of the item I've sold never arrived so I've refunded the buyers.

But these transactions are also showing in the "late shipment" report?

It's probably because of the "Did you received the item before date" question, they answer no which is obvious as the item never arrived! The system could simply not count refunded undelivered item as "late shipped" even when the answer to the question is no.

Also items that are late arrival are considered late shipped which is a LIE!

I can ship 5 minutes after sale and the item can still arrived late but you can't say it was shipped late.

I do not use tracking services (it cost more than the value of the items) so 2-3% of my item never arrived and I refund them no problem, I still save more on shipping. But the standard needed to keep the top-seller rating is lower than the standard delivered by Canada-Post.

 I do not get why item I ship on Monday have 50% more chance to get dinged for "late shipment".

I am discouraged as I am responsible for something I have no control on.

Keven Noel

---

Hi @arteis - thanks for sharing what you're seeing on your account. I want to clarify a few things about late shipment to make sure you're aware of all ways to get credit for this metric (there are three).

First: Ship with tracking and get an 'acceptance' scan within your stated handling time. If that is done you receive credit for shipping on time, regardless of anything else that happens.

Or

Second: Ship with tracking and the item scans as delivered by the estimated delivery date given to the buyer. 

Or

Third: When leaving feedback, the buyer selects that they did get the item in time (by the latest estimated delivery date based on the information provided in the listing).

If any of those conditions are met, the item is considered shipped 'on time', even if the other two come back as negative. If there is no tracking and the buyer chooses not to answer the question it is not counted in your shipping metrics.

In the scenario you described (a member never receiving an item, issuing them a refund, and getting an on-time shipping miss) that sounds valid: a buyer is still able to leave feedback for a transaction even if the transaction has to be cancelled or an Item not Received request is opened and closed with a refund. If either of the other two options were met, you would have credit for it as on-time, even though it was refunded.

I know you've said that your business model doesn't support using tracked services, and I respect that. However, you are leaving yourself only option 3 to get credit for an on-time shipment. It doesn't appear to have impacted your business thus far, and I'm glad to hear it. The Top Rated Plus discount is the way we incentivize behaviors we feel lead to repeat buyers on the platform and from you. I recognize that the 10% discount may not make financial sense for you if moving to tracking would cost more than that, but I think it may be something worth investigating.

If you have concerns about specific transactions from your detailed shipping report I encourage you to contact Customer Support by phone or by social media (Twitter or Facebook) and they'll be happy to review it with you. Thanks!

[momcqueen]

Thank you, Tyler. 

[momcqueen]

---

@lotzofuniquegoodies wrote:

My observation of this ongoing situation is buyers are clicking on the incorrect box when filing these claims. 2 examples below.

Customer A: Made purchase. Item arrived in correct time frame but box was empty on receipt.

Filed a request for a return. (Why would anyone want to return an empty box?) Advised customer I could reship because I had replacement stock. Shipped out 2nd unit. Was charged for a late delivery.(Made claim for postage/contents with package photos and received cheque in under 10 days from Canadapost)

Customer 2: Purchased item and paid 2 minutes later. I packaged that evening and created postage. Before I even had time the next morning buyer asked for a "Return". Their reason. Wasn't in the budget. Okay. Have another coffee and do deep breathing exercises. Cancelled postage and refunded customer for their order. Waited 3 weeks for a credit for postage from Shippo for unused postage. They do not refund. They credit. My understanding for USPS they refund within 10 business days. This to me seems to be another example of a strike for something I had no control of.

I could contact CS with my explanations but from past experience they tend to side with customer 9 times out of 10 which I am learning not to appreciate.

-CM

---

I suspect that if you contact Customer Service about these matters and have your data all ready, they will erase both. Neither instance honours the spirit of what a Late Shipment mark is supposed to signify. 

[momcqueen]

---

@rose-dee wrote:

---

@momcqueen wrote:

"The late delivery policy was focused primarily on the U.S. seller base...."

False, it was to rein in sellers from overseas who promise much and deliver little. 

---

No, actually, the eBay staffers themselves admitted that the concept of the late delivery policy (i.e. "on-time delivery") was U.S.-centred, focused on U.S. sellers who had inexpensive domestic tracking readily available to them.   You'll recall this goes as far back as Raphael's comments in this respect when the policy was introduced -- if you look through the purpose-built discussion thread on the subject I'm sure you'll be able to find those remarks. 

The horde of Chinese sellers on eBay already had cheap, state-funded tracking available to them for years.  This policy will have had virtually no effect on them.  Few other international seller groups match the size of the U.S. and Chinese seller sector combined, so I doubt eBay was primarily thinking of miscellaneous international sellers when devising this plan.  

---

Please cite your sources on this. Thanks.

[dutchman48]

---

@momcqueen wrote:

My point is that a seller has to pick their poison and stick with it: either they ship fewer parcels with tracking and have no INRs and Late Shipment reports OR they ship many items cheaply without tracking and have INRs and Late Shipment reports.

ebay made these changes so we cannot have our cake and eat it too.

It's unlikely to change in the near future; it seems as if ebay is fairly satisfied with the outcome of this effort to keep its sellers in line so all that sellers can do is decide how they want to operate, and like it. Or not. It makes no difference to me, and it certainly makes no difference to ebay. If ebay cared what we thought of Late Shipment reports they'd have paid heed to the hue and cry raised when this method of seller performance evaluation was announced and adopted two years ago. Or maybe it was three.

Regardless, I didn't like it then and I don't love it now, but I made my internal process changes as a seller to work within the new system of evaluation and stuck to them. 

---

I will stick my neck out on this one and be rude.

How many $3 or $4 items do you think you would sell if you charged what the idiots at Canada Post charge for tracking!

Not everyone sells what you do so please do not use your situation and try to apply it to others where it does not fit.

It helps no one

[momcqueen]

I am merely explaining how the new system of seller performance was created to work and how a seller is expected to work with it. 

If a seller wants to ship without tracking, they have to accept the risk of Items Not Received and Late Shipment reports.

If a seller wants to ship with tracking, they have accept the possibility buyers will be averse to the higher cost of postage but the seller will be spared Item Not Received claims and have no Late Shipment Reports.

Or adjust handling time.

You don't have to like it. I do't have to like it. There is no 'me' in this situation, look to the answer given by ebay staff if you don't appreciate the words coming from me. It's not about what anyone here 'likes', you can take the advice or not, it is of no consequence to me. I'm minding my own business, literally. The OP asked, I answered. At no point did I tell him what to do with his business.