eBay

widgetc · ‎11-02-2017

I received this message. What should I know about promoted listings? Any advice, issues, benefits etc...

rose-dee · ‎11-12-2017

@ricarmic wrote:
Promoted listings is simply the latest version of options folks have to increase their visibility. eBay has had a few different styles over the years.

In the pre-internet days, the guys with the biggest ads in the papers etc got the most traffic, and the bigger the ad, the more it cost.

That is true, but I think the difference with this new scheme of eBay's is that sellers aren't paying up front and nobody knows how much the other seller is willing to pay to get a sale.

I think this is just going to encourage a whole rush of sellers hoping to "win" this lottery/auction, which to my mind will ultimately defeat the whole purpose of paying extra for more exposure. EBay will of course be the end winner because the sellers who do benefit will be the ones who can afford to compete in this seller auction with a higher (hidden) fee bid, unbeknownst to the lower end sellers who can't afford to risk higher fees. Basically eBay is opening the flood gates again, to any and all in the never-ending search for more cash to feed the shareholders, not to encourage and support better quality sellers. Hmmm...where have we seen this concept before?

I find it all very diabolically brilliant on eBay's part. Just what I've come to expect of them -- use your sellers, any sellers, and as many as possible, to eat each other up for the benefit of your bottom line. That is, instead of allowing only those sellers with the highest proven standards to pay in advance for advertising space, thus giving buyers the best chance of finding what they want from a seller with a great reputation. Really I see it as a matter of perspective on eBay's part, grab while the grabbing is good, in any way you can, even if the result is to lower the overall quality of the site. I can't say I have much respect left for eBay's "corporate morality'.

I remember the highlighted listings eBay used to have years ago. They were expensive -- at least $10 or more if I recall. I tried them a few times, but the site wasn't flooded with them because you had to think very carefully before agreeing to pay good money up front for the extra exposure. The same was true with newspaper or magazine advertising. This, on the other hand, is a carrot (gee, free promotion!) with a large stick attached to the end of it, behind the curtain of course.

BTW, I don't mean to denigrate in any way your use of these promotions. I mean to denigrate eBay for being so devious.

momcqueen · ‎11-12-2017

I don't have the time or will to analyze the usefulness of the Promoted Listings program or the role it has to play in my online sales but logic would dictate that if I'm paying an extra $15 to advertise something in order to sell it, it means that fifteen dollars will be added to my asking price. It's not like I'm willing to earn less on an item just to sell it, so that expense will be passed along to my buyer, the same as it would if it was an item with free postage, the postage cost is merely being added to the asking price.

So now with any Promoted Listings of mine that have free shipping embedded in the asking price so too will the cost of advertising via Promoted Listings.

I think the interesting part of this is whether buyers truly go for cheap items or whether go for sponsored items regardless of price. I guess the success of this endeavour depends on the relative suaveness of my particular cross-section of shoppers.

momcqueen · ‎11-12-2017

They are, however, appearing within the top four on Best Match of 80,000 results. So that alone has to be worth something.

momcqueen · ‎11-12-2017

(On ebay.ca that is.)

pjcdn2005 · ‎11-12-2017

That is true, but I think the difference with this new scheme of eBay's is that sellers aren't paying up front and nobody knows how much the other seller is willing to pay to get a sale.

Are you certain of that? I think that this program is very similar to one of the last advertising promotions that they did a couple of years ago when sellers had a choice of how much they wanted to pay. I don’t remember all of the details but this one seems to actually be a bit of a better deal for the sellers who use it. I can understand why you may think that it isn’t something that would work for you but I don’t share your views that eBay is being devious or diabolical for offering it.

momcqueen · ‎11-12-2017

I would have to agree with you. It seems pretty clear how much I'm paying to sell as a Promoted Listing on the item when I use the slider to adjust the percentage, it shows a dollar figure on the side. It doesn't seem as if it's attempting to be tricky about it. The only tricky part is competing against other sellers who might be doing the same thing. And whether or not the word Sponsored on a listing compels any buyer to look at it. I do like placing higher in Best Match. I don't on ebay.com with those Promoted Listings but I do on ebay.ca.

rose-dee · ‎11-13-2017

@mjwl2006 wrote:
I would have to agree with you. It seems pretty clear how much I'm paying to sell as a Promoted Listing on the item when I use the slider to adjust the percentage, it shows a dollar figure on the side. It doesn't seem as if it's attempting to be tricky about it.

I think you and 'pj' both misread my post. I didn't say sellers don't know how much they would be paying (the choice of how much to pay for each Promoted item is indeed made up front).

What I was trying to explain was that the money isn't coming out of the seller's pocket as an immediate commitment (for example, like paying for a bold typeface upgrade). Sellers know that not every promoted listing they agree to pay for will in fact sell.

So, throw in a coin, and hope to get your wish -- how many wishes come true, no seller will know in advance. Some people will have the discipline to budget for, and keep track of, the total of the enhanced fees they've agreed to pay, on the basis that every single Promoted item will sell. Many will not.

This is how gamblers get into trouble, and I'm sure eBay is counting on it. Which is why I call this a diabolical concept. Brilliantly so though, you have to hand it to eBay for cooking this up.

The lottery/auction aspect of this scheme, actually a silent auction, does sellers another ill turn by pitting them against each other in the dark. (For example, if your competitor has paid for a "bold" upgrade, you'll see it, but if they've bet a 30% fee on selling an item via Promoted Listings, you won't know whether your "bid" to promote a similar item is higher or lower). I see this hidden aspect as a real problem. Open competition is one thing, veiled lottery competition is another.

Right now Promoted Listings are likely quite effective because the scheme hasn't yet fully caught on. Ultimately there will probably be so much stuff being "promoted" that only the highest fee bidders will benefit. In other words, eBay will ensure it makes maximum dollar on every item sold, not just the basic fee for listing, with visibility based on the seller's merit and the listing's compliance with policy.

I think you have to look at this scheme in the larger sense in terms of eBay's operations and need for cash. If Promoted Listings works the way eBay envisaged it, i.e. a rush by sellers for better placement and visibility at any cost, eBay will be double-dipping on seller fees, keeping sellers battling for better position based on money, not merit (thus ensuring eBay a continuing flow of competing and ever-increasing fee rates), and enabling sellers with deeper pockets to float to the top, whether the goods are worthy of buyers' attention or not. Think of the backlash from sellers if eBay raised its listing enhancement fees by 30%. Here, nobody need ever know!

This is the antithesis of a set, fair schedule of fees and upgrades, and I really do think it does a disservice to everyone but eBay itself, which will be happily raking in the highest possible extra fees. Whether this scheme will damage eBay's reputation in the longer term remains to be seen.

rose-dee · ‎11-13-2017

@mjwl2006 wrote:
[...] logic would dictate that if I'm paying an extra $15 to advertise something in order to sell it, it means that fifteen dollars will be added to my asking price. It's not like I'm willing to earn less on an item just to sell it, so that expense will be passed along to my buyer, the same as it would if it was an item with free postage, the postage cost is merely being added to the asking price.

So now with any Promoted Listings of mine that have free shipping embedded in the asking price so too will the cost of advertising via Promoted Listings.

I hadn't thought of this aspect previously, but you're right -- sellers will feel compelled to raise item prices to compensate for Promoted fees.

In the result, eBay will not only benefit from the Promoted Listings seller lottery competing for best placement on the basis of the highest fee, but will also benefit from the higher basic FVFs on those higher-priced goods once they sell. And the buyers -- who cares?

As I said, a dazzlingly brilliant scheme on eBay's part! Almost unbelievably perfect. Make sellers eat each other, gambling their potential earnings away, while buyers pay higher prices, and eBay rakes in the excess at both ends.

I'm honestly in awe of the depths of eBay's lack of scruples (I was going to say depravity), imagining the boardroom scene when this was brainstormed.

rose-dee · ‎11-13-2017

One last thing I have to say, and then I have to go plant some garlic, it's a beautiful autumn day.

This whole thing does make me very sad. EBay has apparently lost respect for its sellers and buyers and now sees them merely as cash cows to be exploited in any way possible. Profits are a good thing, but corporate greed unfettered by moral concerns, at the expense of those generating the profits, is quite another in my view.

There was once (many years ago) the sense that eBay and its sellers mutually supported each other, eBay promoting those sellers who gave buyers the best products at good prices, and with the best customer service (remember the term "best buyer experience" -- you don't hear that much anymore). In turn, eBay provided tools and features designed to make the best sellers become the most successful and profitable for them, and devised a clear and open set of fees and a number of policies to meet that end.

It seems to me eBay has forgotten all this. They really must have shareholders snapping at their heels to have strayed so far on the spectrum of corporate responsibility.

dutchman48 · ‎11-13-2017

Ebay is no different than many employers and their employees:

Get the most out of them for the longest possible time at the least possible expense, then kick them to the curb.

The only difference I see is Ebay is not a seller's employer even though they try to be.

Ebay has no loyalty to sellers or buyer, only to the shareholders and senior management bonuses!

momcqueen · ‎11-13-2017

@rose-dee wrote:
@mjwl2006 wrote:
I would have to agree with you. It seems pretty clear how much I'm paying to sell as a Promoted Listing on the item when I use the slider to adjust the percentage, it shows a dollar figure on the side. It doesn't seem as if it's attempting to be tricky about it.
I think you and 'pj' both misread my post. I didn't say sellers don't know how much they would be paying (the choice of how much to pay for each Promoted item is indeed made up front)..... I see this hidden aspect as a real problem. Open competition is one thing, veiled lottery competition is another. ....

It's not hidden. Have you attempted to set-up any Promoted Listings? It gives you a display of 'trending rates' and allows you to apply it to your own. The 'gamble' your competitors are taking on paying for Promoted Listings aren't kept a secret in a category where sellers are actively using it.

Exhibit A:

rose-dee · ‎11-14-2017

mjwl2006 wrote:
It's not hidden. Have you attempted to set-up any Promoted Listings? It gives you a display of 'trending rates' and allows you to apply it to your own. The 'gamble' your competitors are taking on paying for Promoted Listings aren't kept a secret in a category where sellers are actively using it.

Are you sure about that? You're prepared to completely trust eBay on this score? Does this tell you what your direct competitor(s) are actually paying? Who knows.

No need for an Exhibit, I've checked out Promoted Listings and I understand completely how the payment scale works.

Again, my point was not that the cost of entering the lottery is hidden to the individual seller who chooses to gamble; my criticism is that what sellers pay is hidden from other sellers. It is, in essence, a blind lottery. EBay can put up any figures they like to mollify and tempt sellers to enter.

You may not think this makes any difference, but compare it to the alternative, which is an open, fixed fee system where everyone knows how much it costs other sellers to list, sell, and upgrade, and there is no mystery about how much your competitor will have to pay. This allows you to meaningfully balance how much you should pay for listings, upgrades, and promotion against what your competition will have to pay, and make rational, planned adjustments.

It's this very cloaked aspect of the Promoted Listings system as a whole that I find most concerning and most devious (aside from the other nefarious aspects of the scheme). If you'll pardon the metaphor, think of it as a room full of curtained booths, each with its own slot machine. Nobody knows what, or how much, his neighbour is willing to gamble in order to get one winner. Only the man behind the curtain really knows, and therefore can take full advantage of the fee competition amongst the gamblers. In our case, that control will consist of the highest gamblers getting the best selling advantage, based primarily on how much money they can put up. No one seller will ever know how much the other(s) paid for that privilege.

The more sellers turn to using Promoted Listings the less effective regular listings (based on the old seller merit system) may become. Doubtless eBay is hoping this very pressure will convince more and more sellers to participate in the scheme.

I originally thought this might be a self-limiting concept once too many sellers were participating (too many promotions = no promotions). On second thought though, it may take a long time before eBay taps out the most well-heeled sellers' ability to front money. It really depends on what the market will bear. What's the most that sellers with money to spend on promotion will be willing to pay? As long as promotion/advertising expenses can be written off, the biggest (incorporated) sellers will last the longest. I'm sorry to say it, but this is also exactly what casinos count on -- big rollers with deep pockets who can outplay the little guys. As we all know though, the house always wins in the end.

In fact, this also isn't much different (as I said previously) from what goes on at an auction, just reversed and on a much grander scale. If you've ever placed an advance bid at a live auction, you'll know what I mean. All such bids are hidden from each other. You wait for auction day, but have no idea how much other advance bidders might be risking, and so the temptation is to bid as much as you possibly can. This of course benefits the auction house and the seller, not usually the people placing sealed bids. EBay has simply reversed this process to turn it against its own sellers and let them compete with each other to see which bidder gets the best opportunity to sell.

In effect, eBay has constructed a shark tank, and will benefit more and more as bigger fish eat up the smaller ones. They've realized they have a product to exploit, and that is exposure, and now they'll let their sellers fight over it rather than work to earn it. Forget about merit or seller status or customer service -- money rules. I must admit it really is fiendishly clever plan, even for eBay.

pjcdn2005 · ‎11-14-2017

Again, my point was not that the cost of entering the lottery is hidden to the individual seller who chooses to gamble; my criticism is that what sellers pay is hidden from other sellers. It is, in essence, a blind lottery. EBay can put up any figures they like to mollify and tempt sellers to enter.

There is no evidence that they are doing that so your are making assumptions without any facts. I really don't doubt that they are showing the correct information but regardless, in the real world ebay or otherwise, you do not know what other businesses are paying for products or services whether it be for advertising, supplies, etc. etc. Business in general is not a level playing field regardless what type of business you are in whether you are selling online or doing something totally unrelated. Do you think that Hudson Bay pays the same rent per sq foot in your local mall as what Joe the dry cleaner pays? I can guarantee you that they do not pay the same and I can also guarantee that neither of them knows what the other is paying. I can also guarantee that if the mall does some type of advertising for its retailers that not everyone receives the same amount of space and/or pays the same amount. That's just the way business works and ebay is a business just like any other business.

There are definitely things that ebay does that I am not in favor of and in my opinion, some of those things do not benefit anybody including ebay themselves but that doesn't mean that there is evil and malice in their intentions. I realize that there are some people here who are not going to see the positive side in anything that ebay does and that is certainly their choice but it makes more sense to me to focus on my business and use what works for me rather than insisting that anything new must have a hidden agenda.

I'm not going to comment on this again as I don't expect you to agree with me and it's unlikely that I am suddenly going to see things in the same light that you do. I'll just have to agree to disagree with you.

mrdutch1001 · ‎11-14-2017

I find the concept of Promoted Listings on eBay to be very little different from that of other selling venues that give sellers the opportunity to use Promoted Listings. Having used Promoted Listings on another selling venue, I am familiar with how these systems works and yes it is always about which sellers are willing to pay for those Promoted Listings, and how much sellers are willing to spend to get the most exposure.Sellers know not what other sellers are willing to pay, so it's always a battle for the most exposure. Many sellers benefit greatly from Promoted Listings, others will not.Many sellers will gain more sales from using Promoted Listings, other sellers may see no significant increase in their sales. For myself on this other selling venue, Promoted Listings gained me nothing other than increased views, no sales ever resulted from using the Promoted listings. It's a pay to play system and for the selling venue ii is a win win situation.

musicyouneed · ‎11-14-2017

I used promoted listing both on .ca and .com. Somehow it works for me.

momcqueen · ‎11-14-2017

@rose-dee wrote:
mjwl2006 wrote:
It's not hidden. Have you attempted to set-up any Promoted Listings? It gives you a display of 'trending rates' and allows you to apply it to your own. The 'gamble' your competitors are taking on paying for Promoted Listings aren't kept a secret in a category where sellers are actively using it.
Are you sure about that? You're prepared to completely trust eBay on this score? Does this tell you what your direct competitor(s) are actually paying? Who knows......

I can tell you that pondering the answer to this question does not keep me up at night.

It is inconsequential to my business plan what percentage of sales my competitors are willing to spend on advertising. That's their business, and I don't give a hoot about their business. I do what I need to do for my own success; it doesn't depend on the success or failure of others.

And I do not believe ebay has some devilish plan designed to pit seller against seller in a bloodbath of sponsored listings until one lone seller emerges, cloaked in the gore and guts of his enemies.

If I did think ebay had some 'fiendish' motive for initiating Promoted Listings and if I did believe in the many conspiracy theories abound, I wouldn't invest my time as a seller here on a venue that holds so little trust for me. There is no Harbinger of Doom badge coming to the revamped ebay Community experience. Or is there? Maybe there should be; it would certainly help identify which posts to take with a grain of salt. Or a tinfoil hat.

rose-dee · ‎11-15-2017

@mjwl2006 wrote:
It is inconsequential to my business plan what percentage of sales my competitors are willing to spend on advertising. That's their business, and I don't give a hoot about their business. I do what I need to do for my own success; it doesn't depend on the success or failure of others.

Is it really? The question of the value of comparative marketing aside, I think eBay is banking on exactly this attitude with their scheme, i.e. hoping there are enough sellers who don't care what competitors pay and are content paying fees and charges that aren't set out in black and white for all to see.

If I did think ebay had some 'fiendish' motive for initiating Promoted Listings and if I did believe in the many conspiracy theories abound, I wouldn't invest my time as a seller here on a venue that holds so little trust for me.

You might want to read eBay's most recent S.E.C. submission. For the record, this is no conspiracy theory. I said it was a brilliant business plan on eBay's part to quickly increase its income by using its sellers against one another. Theories are suppositions. This is an existing scheme we can all see in action. Sellers can either trust in eBay's statistical pronouncements or be skeptical. I'm in the latter camp. To imagine that eBay will have no direct control over the "trending" displays is almost laughable.

After so many years of watching eBay's dissembling, I've become cynical about their motives, and a realist about their need to feed the insatiable demands of shareholders for more cash. Unfortunately eBay hasn't earned my unquestioned faith in their every word. My criticism isn't a theory, I'm decrying the fact that we have a corporation that is less and less interested in dealing fairly and up front with its sellers and supporting them in being successful so that they in turn make eBay successful, and more and more interested in how best to exploit them.

It really boils down to a matter of corporate conscience. I thought you were leaving eBay because of a disagreement over just that. I'm surprised you're giving them a gold star for something even less appealing.

brettjet38 · ‎11-15-2017

"I got the invitation yesterday too" - ME TOO! I put it in the trash bin.

"I was awaiting for someone else to start a thread about it." - ME TOO!!!

"I'll probably try it when I have a spare moment but I'm busy at present setting up two other outside-ebay sales channels" - I will not try it, but as for the outside sales channels - ME TOO!!!

"Before the watermark policy announcement, I would have been all over this like white on rice, but now It doesn't hold much interest for me since I decided that I had to develop an exit strategy for ebay." - ME TOO!!!

I will refine/reduce my current ebay listings to reduce costs and fees, and move the rest off eBay into my new site and store.

I have had enough of the endless changes, bugs and errors which never end and the fees which just keep going up, while the buyers dwindle over to Amazon and China.

rose-dee · ‎11-15-2017

@pjcdn2005 wrote:

I really don't doubt that they are showing the correct information but regardless, in the real world ebay or otherwise, you do not know what other businesses are paying for products or services whether it be for advertising, supplies, etc. etc.

I suppose you have faith in eBay's basic bona fides as a corporation to accept without doubt that they're providing truthful and accurate information. I'm afraid I don't. I treat eBay with skepticism and realism, based on their past actions and history.

As far as "real world" advertising is concerned, when you purchase advertising space, whether it be in a newspaper, magazine, billboard, TV, radio or otherwise, there is a fee schedule. I dealt with them constantly in marketing positions in both private companies and government, and believe me, we knew precisely what our nearest competitor was paying for advertising, how much, where, and how often. This was valuable information, and those facts were taken into account in our own advertising and marketing plans. There are of course always large account-holders (such as governments or major corporations) who get special discounts, but generally those in the field are aware of them and who they are. Unless you're competing directly with them, it hardly matters.

On the other hand, in a lottery/auction scheme such as eBay's Promoted Listings, that knowledge becomes far more nebulous and subject to a lot of supposition and assumptions. This in turn benefits the provider of the advertising services, because users are more or less in the dark as to what anybody else is paying, and may tend to over-spend.

I really wouldn't be surprised to see this sort of concept spread out into other areas, although I'm not sure how well it would be received outside the captive-audience scenario that comprises eBay's (or other online venue's) seller community.

momcqueen · ‎11-16-2017

@rose-dee wrote:
.... It really boils down to a matter of corporate conscience. I thought you were leaving eBay because of a disagreement over just that. I'm surprised you're giving them a gold star for something even less appealing.

What I am leaving is this debate. When I leave ebay, it will be over disagreement over actual policy and/or procedure, not words I believed I saw written by airplanes leaving chemtrails in the sky.