A hole in the system where seller loses 100%?

[luckylegend]

I sold my gucci shoes to a buyer in UK and shipped it in a timely manner the next day.

They contacted in a week saying that they need to pay 20 pounds in customs to their country. They also said that upon refusal they will reject package and claim money back with paypal.

I called paypal and they confirmed that even if the tracking shows attempted delivery, if the last tracking does not show delivered then a full refund will be forced out of my account.

It leaves me with loss on delivery both ways (62*2=124cad) and commissions (40cad). Not even sure I get back my package.

Are we actually that vulnerable to such an extortion? That is simply sad. I don’t think anybody will ship international after such a burn, never again!

[sylviebee]

Call PP again.  That's not the way it works.  If tracking shows that the package arrived at its destination and the buyer refused the package for some reason you are off the hook.  Buyers do not have the option of refusing packages and filing claims for refunds.

[luckylegend]

My sweet summer child.
I have been told by Paypal many times that if package is not delivered to the customer no matter what the reason is it is on the seller to refund. In this case it will be ruled in buyer’s favor. I read about another instance identical to mine (with proof) here on ebay with the same outcome.

Edit: if you are a seller and you ship internationally I do suggest you call PP and inquire about it, because I feel like it’s my responsibility to inform everybody that is selling about this unfortunate but very real (in my case) situation.

Nonetheless, if anybody did experience such event and got out of it without losing their money and dignity I would be happy if you share your wisdom with me.

[marnotom!]

I think you two may be referring to slightly different scenarios.

@luckylegend, the way I'm reading your posts, you're referring to situations where the item has not reached its destination as defined by PayPal (i.e. the post(al)/ZIP code on file for the shipment)

@sylviebee The way I read your post, you're referring to situations where the item did reach the intended destination, but the recipient refused delivery at that point

Did the item reach its destination before being refused or did it get delivered elsewhere and is on hold awaiting pickup by the buyer?

[ypdc_dennis]

---

@luckylegend wrote:
...  I don’t think anybody will ship international after such a burn, never again!

---

That's why American Sellers like the Global-Shipping-Program, all taxes/duty are paid upfront by the Buyer at time of purchase for foreign sales.

One of the risks of Selling (online or directly) -- there are always bad guys/gals out there who want their gain to be your pain.

If it had been me, with that amount of money involved, I would have given a partial refund (using the exact customs/VAT the buyer owed, not a round number like 20 pounds) with note (paypal has that option) giving the reason for the partial refund, then blocked the buyer and reporting them to eBay as a problem buyer.  Small loss versus big loss.

-..-

[luckylegend]

Delivery was attempted and a note was left for the buyer to pick up. I actually have the picture of the paper he recived with their name and the custom charge, date time etc. They forwarded it to me with their demand for me to pay.

Tracking: LX036605321CA

Check royal mail website it gives you details if you want

I contacted PP and they said it doesn’t matter if the delivery was attempted or not. They only focus on the outcome.

[luckylegend]

I also thought about refunding 20 pounds to the buyer so he can pay his customs. But knowing how knowledgeable he is with the loop holes, I am afraid he will pick it up and claim fake. I will happilly get back my package untouched and just relist it.
As a buyer, I hatw GSP! So expensive! But again, I never did anything manipulative like that so normal tracked shipping does the job well for me. But after my experience I do understand more sellers who only and only would go through GSP...

I don’t think canadian sellers can send via GSP though...

[sylviebee]

There is something wrong with the scenario you've described.

If tracking shows that the item was delivered to the PP address and the buyer does not pick it up for whatever reason, then the seller is not required to reimburse the buyer.

I've had expensive items returned to me when buyers did not pick them up and was never required to refund these buyers in any way.

[luckylegend]

Did those buyers open a dispute of item not received via Paypal?
Ebay will rule such dispute in your favor. Paypal will not

[reallynicestamps]

The buyer did not pay customs and does not have the shoes.

The seller is not required to refund until the shoes are back in his hands.

Which with return/refused will be very slow since Return To Sender is not a postal system priority.

Did the buyer open a Paypal Dispute?

If not, do not refund.

If he did, insist on the return. And with PP the buyer pays the return.

If the buyer opened an eBay Dispute, the seller would (probably) be paying for the return.

With a refusal, it is possible that the seller will be paying return postage on delivery.

Did the seller opt for return or destroy when he bought the shipping label?  The return doesn't cost anything up front, but might if the item is returned.

[sylviebee]

When opening a case with PP one has to give a reason for the case and there are several options to choose from.

Did your buyer actually open a PP case and win?  If so, what was the buyer's reason for the case?  A buyer can't just file a case with PP without giving a valid reason for the case.

In fact, I had to open a PP case recently and they've made it quite a bit more difficult to file a claim than it used to be.

[luckylegend]

It’s not exactly that.

Paypal: if buyer opens a dispute of item not received. PP checks tracking. If the tracking does not show “delivered” full sum is automatically refunded to the buyer. It doesn’t matter if the package is still sitting in the post office, on the way to the sender or in a trash can.

Ebay: if buyer opens a dispute then ebay money back guarantee is void because he refused customs. Therefore seller wins!

Difference: with PP the reason of non delivery doesn’t matter. While with ebay buyer protection is void.

In my case, buyer indicated he will reject and open PP dispute

If package is refused by the recipient it is supposed to go back to me as I did check “return to sender”. I hope it will work if it gets to that.
If the buyer let’s it sit in the post office, it is supposed to be automatically shipped back after 21 days. I would have to incur all fees ...

[luckylegend]

Valid reason for the case: item not received

I verified with PP and they did say that he is able to open it if the tracking doesn’t show “delivered”.

[sylviebee]

---

@luckylegend wrote:
It’s not exactly that.


In my case, buyer indicated he will reject and open PP dispute

---

Yes, I understand that they buyer threatened to open a PP case, but did he actually open the case and win?

(What you're posting completely contradicts everything I've known and experienced with this type of situation so I'm finding it very hard to buy.)

[luckylegend]

Please read the following: https://www.aspkin.com/forums/paypal-talk/109931-what-happens-if-buyer-doesnt-pay-customs-fees.html

If you still can’t believe also read
https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/Managing-Risk-and-Fraud/Buyer-refuse-to-pay-for-import-duty-Plea...

He did not open the case but after his very specific threat I started thinking. And caled PP to see if it’s true. I found out it is!

[sylviebee]

Those discussions are just speculation............... exactly what you're doing.

Why not come back when your buyer actually opens a PP case and report what happens.

Until then I wouldn't worry about it.

[pjcdn2005]

Are you sure that the cases you won were opened through PP rather than through ebay?  As luckylegend mentioned, ebay does protect sellers if there was attempted delivery. With PP, a seller only wins an inr if there was actual delivery.  If you've experienced the opposite, then that's

something that I've never heard about happening through PP before.

[luckylegend]

I needed to decide how to act. And because of that I did a lot of research. Finally I called PP severa times and spoke with several reps and they all confirmed that no matter what happened in between, if it doesn’t show “delivered” an immediate refund is issued. No discussions. Can’t appeal . This is the rule

Edit: the buyer will most likely open INR as they said they will. That’s why I wanted to see if any of you experienced it first hand, and hope that somebody tells me that they actually won an unwinable scenario ... if yes then how ?

[sylviebee]

No PJ, I'm not sure, but I'm just not fully buying that PP will refund a buyer who refuses delivery.

As far as CC chargebacks go, have you ever tried to do one?  UNBELIEVABLY difficult!

[pjcdn2005]

You should still wait for the buyer to open a claim through PP before you refund.  As long as you refund voluntarily without making PP step in, you will be able to receive credit for all PP and ebay fees other than the PP .30 fee.