Does anyone else think the DSR system is a total and utter farce??

[coolthings123]

This system is totally dysfunctional.   Buyer leaves glowing feedback on one hand and torpedoes you with a bunch of 1's on a multiple purchase and there is nothing you can do about it.  eBay doesn't care.  In fact I think eBay is probably really happy when it happens because they make more money by not having to give you a discount on your final value fees.  I called customer support and wasted 10 minutes of my life.  Their solution was communicate more with the customer and ask them to leave positive comments and DSR ratings if they are happy.  They said it is okay for a customer to leave glowing feedback and yet leave a bunch of low rating numbers.  REALLY??   I have been doing this for over ten years and I am seriously considering calling it a day.  I have had maybe a handful of negatives over the past ten years but in reality these people were never going to be happy no matter what you did.  I can deal with that.  What I can't deal with anymore is the fact eBay doesn't seem to give a hoot about the sellers who in my view are the people making eBay rich.  Don't get me wrong I don't have a problem with eBay making money.  Everyone likes to make money.   What really irks me is in my view just about every eBay policy favours the buyer at the expense of the seller.  Maybe I am wrong.  Would really like to hear your opinion/horror stories relating to DSR.     

[owen6122]

Yeah I got hit with the buyer who bought the $5 generic item that was shipped within the hour and left great positive feedback and 1's in every category.  It was an auction item with no bids that I ended early for him too that I relisted as "Buy it Now" so he could have it.  He had a low number of feedback but not crazy low.  Maybe competition?  IT really hurt as a low volume seller.  

[rose-dee]

Yes, I think in your earlier comment you missed the point of the discussion about DSRs on shipping costs.

In my view, if a seller clearly displays shipping costs (regardless of what those are), once a buyer has seen and agreed to those costs, that should end the buyer's ability to complain about what he has paid for shipping, whether directly or through DSRs. Period.  For eBay to allow sellers to rate a buyer on shipping costs already agreed to is, well, ridiculous.  It not only goes against logic, it runs counter to ordinary contract law.

Sellers tailor their shipping costs to best suit their businesses and their "risk comfort".  There are lots of choices for buyers.  Buyers can move on to another seller if they prefer, before hitting that Commit to Buy button.

[almond_t]

I'm not so sure anybody 'missed' anything....Debonair P***** addressed the point in question as well as queried other points, which he highlighted. 

  I also agreed with P*****'s stated comments s regarding forced upgraded shipping, and insurance not being supplied by the party responsible for it.  My post specified I was dealing with that post excerpt.  

Having said that, I agree wholeheartedly that the DDR system is inadequate, if not downright improper and misleading at times.  I have stated that repeatedly in the past, defending the seller's point of view on this.

Furthermore, I also agree that priority shipping 'MAY' be the most appropriate for 'particular' items, such as cups and saucers et al, and expensive items, and i would pay for upgraded service w/o complaint.  But I would judge it to be a waste of money to ship costume jewelry, booklets, and other inexpensive and small unbreakables via priority shipping.  I would decline to purchase, rather than be forced into  unnecessary service upgrades simply because the seller arbitrarily said 'my way or the highway'.  That of course, is the sellers' prerogative, but wouldn't they 'sometimes' rather make a sale with an appreciative (albeit Canadian) buyer who might likely be a repeat customer than stand on their principle to be 'right' and be the one calling all the shots?

[pierrelebel]

"if a seller clearly displays shipping costs"

Please read my post.  The seller did NOT specify shipping costs to Canadian or other international buyers. That was the point.  Buyers are quite justified to leave negative feedback and/or low DSR if the seller requests high shipping costs not shown in the listing.

And that was the point.

[rose-dee]

"if a seller clearly displays shipping costs"

Please read my post.  The seller did NOT specify shipping costs to Canadian or other international buyers. That was the point.  Buyers are quite justified to leave negative feedback and/or low DSR if the seller requests high shipping costs not shown in the listing.

And that was the point.

In this particular seller's case, you are correct that the actual numbers are not displayed, and I apologize for the generalization.  However, the following line under the "Shipping" tab in one of this seller's items that I chose at random states:

"Will ship to Worldwide. Contact the seller - opens in a new window or tab for additional shipping costs and services."

This would signal to me that, as a buyer, I need to get a shipping quote from the seller before hitting the "Buy" button, and I think this is a fair expectation, given the warning in the listing itself.  Once informed and after agreeing to purchase, the buyer has sealed the deal. 

I should add that, as a seller of items of various sizes, shapes and weights, it's an enormous challenge to accurately display specific international shipping rates.  I've tried the calculator, but it has other issues, not the least of which is taking control over shipping out of the seller's hands. 

If I were selling breakables, and expensive ones at that, I'd probably do just what this seller has.  It's extremely difficult to accurately pre-weigh an item in a box, accounting in advance for all the necessary packing before it's actually parcelled up.  On occasion I've had to slap on extra postage due to the added weight of packing tape and a few extra pieces of tissue paper, etc. pushing a parcel just over a price ceiling, after I'd already done up the Paypal label. 

The fact that the seller in question has garnered an almost perfect reputation so far speaks volumes.  The sad fact is that some buyers just won't (or can't be bothered to) read the information available in listings, and feel justified in punishing the selling through the anonymous opinion poll offered to them in DSRs. 

Lastly, to respond to 'almond_t"s comments, no seller can force you into unnecessary service upgrades if you have read the listing and asked questions about shipping beforehand.  If there is no information, or insufficient information about shipping, just move on to the next seller.  No buyer is obliged to purchase from a careful seller.  There are lots of sellers who are happy to ship anything to you for bargain-basement prices using the slowest means possible.

I continue to maintain that if a seller provides (or offers to give) shipping information and a buyer accepts the deal (or doesn't bother to read), there should be no outlet for buyer complaint or seller punishment through DSRs or otherwise. 

[pierrelebel]

" continue to maintain that if a seller provides (or offers to give) shipping information and a buyer accepts the deal (or doesn't bother to read), there should be no outlet for buyer complaint or seller punishment through DSRs or otherwise. "

Let's agree to disagree.

[almond_t]

FWIW - 'I' have never been forced into 'anything' by a seller, despite the erroneous suggestion.

But I have, many times, declined to make a purchase due to an over zealous seller.  ( such as one who demands upgraded service when  it is unnecessary).   I am, and have always been, one who pays proper prices, even if they are high, for proper service.  ( and that is MY choice). I have often sent sellers addition funds to reimburse higher than expected shipping costs, if they were truly mistaken.  ( again MY choice - if I want some thing shipped to me, it's ethically ( but not contractually) my responsibility to pay for it using appropriate methods, depending on the demeanor of the seller, in that case.)

I prefer to shop high-end, and contrary to the suggestion otherwise, I do not attempt to  exact bargain basement prices for item or shipping.  Why someone would think otherwise, I do not know.  I did not indicate i expected cheap prices and slow shipping.   My point was regarding UNNECESSARY overcost, and I have highlighted that aspect numerous times.  

And insurance responsibilities...a topic for another day.

[almond_t]

Rose-dee - To add some perspective - Looking at YOUR listings, I would be prepared to, and happy to, pay premium shipping/handling costs for the purchase of many of  your ( beautiful) gowns and other such items.  I would decline to pay  anything more than standard shipping on other random items, as they wouldn't warrant the care, cost, and consideration of shipping a gown.  

Your listed costs bear that out, as well.  In fact, I believe your costs are lower than might be warranted in some ( many, actually) cases.  Your M.O. Is to make the sale, obviously, and is to be commended.

Moral of the story :  circumstances alter cases.  Adapt to your customers.

[rose-dee]

I have, many times, declined to make a purchase due to an over zealous seller.  ( such as one who demands upgraded service when  it is unnecessary).   I am, and have always been, one who pays proper prices, even if they are high, for proper service.  ( and that is MY choice). I have often sent sellers addition funds to reimburse higher than expected shipping costs, if they were truly mistaken.  ( again MY choice - if I want some thing shipped to me, it's ethically ( but not contractually) my responsibility to pay for it using appropriate methods, depending on the demeanor of the seller, in that case.)

Sellers should not be demanding additional funds for shipping above what is stated in the listing or quoted upon request, although I'm sure there are some who do.  They should simply eat the difference if they want the customer.  You should probably report them to eBay if you're running into this frequently, or with particular sellers.  If a seller offers options and you choose one at a particular price, the seller must provide it at that price.  Demeanor has nothing to do with it. 

It's important to remember that premium shipping protects the seller more than the buyer, and therefore a seller must decide how much risk or exposure he is willing to accept in offering shipping options.  In that respect, it's not up to the buyer to set shipping costs.  It is up to the buyer to compare (or in some cases negotiate) shipping costs with the seller and make an informed choice before purchasing.

In case you may think me hard towards buyers (and specifically for the reason stated above), when any buyer purchases an item of about $100 or more in value from me, I almost always upgrade the shipping to the next higher level at no charge to them.  Depending on the item, this free upgrade may be worth $15 or $20 that I cover for them.  Often I let them know the difference in cost, but some will never know why the item they paid $15 to have shipped by Expedited for example, ends up on their doorstep in a lightning-fast 3 days with Xpresspost .  My view is that I like the protection and the tracking, and my buyers like the speed.  We both win.  All I hope for is fair treatment from buyers at the other end of the transaction. 

Oddly, despite almost always following this policy of free upgrades, and reducing almost all the rates on the lower-end shipping below my actual cost, there have been buyers who subjectively, after the fact, thought they paid too much in shipping, reflected in "Shipping Cost" DSRs.  Granted, it's not much over the course of a year, but someone must have had issues with costs they'd already agreed to and were fully aware of.  I doubt they understood the importance of those DSRs, but just wanted to lodge dissatisfaction somewhere.  As many sellers have pointed out, buyers can leave lovely positive FB then strafe through the DSRs, I believe because they regard them as mere "opinion polls" that will have no effect on the seller. 

This is illogical and unfair, and yes, Pierre, we'll have to agree to disagree.  I would love to see the Shipping Cost DSR removed forever.  I envy you -- sometimes I wish I were selling nothing but lightweight items that could go in an envelope as regular lettermail that I could offer free shipping on, but alas! 

On the other hand, you have pointed out how unfair the TRS tracking requirements are to sellers who use primarily lettermail.  I'll never have to worry about that problem with the exorbitant prices I pay out of my own pocket to ship my items with tracking, which apparently still don't make all my customers happy.;-)

Aside from offering free shipping on everything (which I can't afford to do with heavier or more expensive items), I have just had to live with the reality that no good deed goes unpunished...

[pierrelebel]

"I envy you -- sometimes I wish I were selling nothing but lightweight items that could go in an envelope as regular lettermail that I could offer free shipping on, but alas! "

You do? Maybe it is not as easy as you think.

An American buyer purchases a $50 stamp.

My choice: letterpost costs $1.10; registered mail $15.00

Should I charge the buyer $15.00?

Should I force the buyer to pay $15.00 as the only option?

The answer is easy.  The stamp goes lettermail and I absorb and assume whatever risks are involved.

OK - Let's do the same excercise with a $100 stamp.

Then a $200 stamp.

From the perspective of a buyer, it is the seller's problem.  If the seller wants protection, he should pay for it. The buyer should pay for the cost of adequate packaging and shipping the item, not the added protection wanted by the seller.

And this is where you and I see the shipping cost differently. As far as I am concerned, it is wrong for a seller to charge the buyer more than needed when the higher shipping cost provides nothing to the buyer but only protection to the seller.

By the way, many years ago, an analysis was made on eBay of DSRs and categories.  You may be surprised to know stamp dealers did NOT have the highest ratings. Why? Stamp collectors are fussy by nature; they expect everything to be perfect.  The highest DSRr were earned by sellers of dolls of all things!

[rose-dee]

In fact, I believe your costs are lower than might be warranted in some ( many, actually) cases.  Your M.O. Is to make the sale, obviously, and is to be commended.

I do appreciate the recognition.  It's a constant and ever-changing problem to decide what to do with shipping. 

One way I've dealt with the smaller, somewhat lighter items is to simply give up trying to keep up to date with Canada Post rates.  This means that the rates shown for shipping (mostly Light Packet) on many listings are a year or two old (i.e. cheaper than current).  I just pay the difference myself when I make a sale.  It saves me a ton of time every January when Canada Post changes all their rates.  I just do nothing, and the discounts for my buyers get larger!

You are right that the gowns, etc. are a different matter.  The flat rate shipping I show is usually already either last year's rate or discounted by me when I list, and then I frequently upgrade the buyer once I sell. 

I know there will come a point where this is no longer viable, but I'd rather continue to attract customers who will buy from me and feel good about it (and most are American, so I am also competing with U.S. postal prices). 

"Carry on Canada", as my mother used to say...

[rose-dee]

From the perspective of a buyer, it is the seller's problem.  If the seller wants protection, he should pay for it. The buyer should pay for the cost of adequate packaging and shipping the item, not the added protection wanted by the seller.

And this is where you and I see the shipping cost differently. As far as I am concerned, it is wrong for a seller to charge the buyer more than needed when the higher shipping cost provides nothing to the buyer but only protection to the seller.

No, no, Pierre, this is actually where you and I completely agree.  This is also why I almost always provide "quiet" upgrading to my buyers. 

I simply feel the buyer must choose amongst sellers, and decide which shipping costs he/she prefers, then stand by that choice, right through to the DSR point.  That, and relatively prompt payment, is all I think should be expected of buyers. 

Pierre!!  You've given me a great idea -- maybe I should be designing and selling ensembles for dolls.  Lightweight, unbreakable, nice people to deal with.  Hmmm... back to the drawing board.  🙂

Actually, I do have some antique doll clothing patterns I will get around to developing one of these days, very beautiful 19th century things.  I once knew a couple who had spent thousands of dollars on antique dolls, and had many of them displayed in an antique baby carriage in the middle of their living room.  There is a huge European, as well as American, market for such things. 

[pierrelebel]

"No, no, Pierre, this is actually where you and I completely agree"

I know,  Your listings clearly demonstrate that. 

I am still puzzled why you seem to object so much to my earlier post commenting on listings by an American seller offering expensive shipping methods, no shipping cost informartion, surcharge for insurance, etc...

Time to go... Mary is calling. 🙂

[almond_t]

I don't think I've  had a seller request additional funds after a sale in recent years. if I did, I would  likely report them, as suggested.  What I meant was, there have been times I have voluntarily reimbursed my seller if it became apparent that they made an honest  mistake in quoting shipping.  Sometimes lowballs are offered to entice a sale, but other times they are  unfortunate slip-ups that can't be recouped.  That's demoralizing to a seller that doesn't have the resources to absorb costly errors! (Even if they are of their own making.)  

Rather than gloat over 'scoring a deal' I would rather give up a few extra bucks ( at my  discretion) and know that I didn't scroo someone out of a cost that was basically supposed to be picked up in  full by me to begin with.  

When I say 'depending on their demeanor ' I mean if they have graciously accepted the loss as theirs, and not tried to stick it to me after the fact.   Then I am more apt to offer to make up some or all of the difference.  After all, there is another human being at the other end of the transaction.  And the only reason they are selling me anything to begin with is to make, not lose, money.  They're not shipping anyone stuff out of  the sheer joy of it;)

[almond_t]

....and it's really no different than when a seller refunds  a buyer for overpaid shipping that they've agreed to...

To which I say THANK YOU!  Much appreciated!

🙂

[rose-dee]

....and it's really no different than when a seller refunds  a buyer for overpaid shipping that they've agreed to...

To which I say THANK YOU!  Much appreciated!  🙂

This is true from a buyer's perspective.  But what many buyers don't realize is that there can be a significant difference to the seller in refunding after the fact.  Once a seller has sold with the shipping as indicated, eBay immediately charges the FVF on the whole of the shipping cost (based on the 1st stated domestic shipping), regardless of whether the seller later refunds a portion out of fairness to the buyer.  This is why so many sellers say they are losing at both ends with shipping, and then losing again if buyers give them low DSRs for shipping costs.  I prefer to use low flat rate shipping amounts and then upgrade, rather than over-charge shipping and refund. 

With multiple purchases, it's a difficult problem if a buyer purchases a number of items, and pays the whole combined shipping amount (yikes!) before I can contact them. One buyer I recall purchased 5 items, so the fees were tallied up x5.  I refunded the buyer a large amount (it was about $60) on the shipping, which I imagine they appreciated, but I lost an additional sum through the multiple eBay fees.  And eBay will not refund the seller for such fees.

I must say I've never had a buyer yet who actually reimbursed me for excess shipping!  But then I almost never charge the whole of the actual shipping cost, let alone more than necessary.  I don't understand why a seller would be in that position in the first place, since it's against policy to charge more in shipping than indicated in the listing or quoted to a buyer.  I'm not sure a buyer would know what the excess shipping amount was in any event if a seller is using Paypal online labels.  This is the first time I've seen anyone mention this -- seems odd. 🙂

[almond_t]

Thinking about it, it probably hasn't been an occurrence in recent times. Ebaying is  much different now than it was even a couple of years  ago.  There isn't the casual back and forth communication between buyer and seller any more; now it's like conversing through a third party at the best of times.  Even relevant details such as what the actual shipping was don't come up with the minimal communication available.  And true, it doesn't show on the PayPal labels.  

However, I frequently receive pkgs with marked labels or real stamps plastered on.  (hopefully it's 'discount postage' ! ). And I  have received PayPal refunds, or even $$$ included in my pkg. for postage that rang in under quote, or due to unknown combining totals.  I consider it a sign of a conscientious seller.  And I try to reciprocate the good will  by being a repeat customer when possible.  

Rose-dee, true, I didn't realize that eBay didn't take refunds into account when calculating FVFs.  That hardly seems fair.  There is a lot to be learned on these boards; I appreciate candid feedback from sellers, just as I hope sellers would appreciate feedback from a buyer's perspective.  

[femmefan1946]

When I reimburse on shipping, the refund is lowered by the FVF fee I will not be getting back from eBay.

[borntofarm63]

I totally agree!! Just lost top-rated seller status because of another low DSR for shipping cost. We use the shipping calculator and charge actual cost, which means that of course we are losing money every time. When you use the calculator and buy labels through paypal, it should be proof that you did not overcharge. Also have low DSRs for shipping time, even though we ship the next or even the same day, and again this can be proved from the tracking number. So even though we are losing money  on postage and shipping fast, we are the ones that get blamed for Canada Post rates and the speed of the Postal service in whatever country they are sent to. IF YOU HAVE PROOF THAT YOU PAID THE POST OFFICE WHAT YOU CHARGED FOR THE POSTAGE AND THAT YOU SHIPPED WITHIN 1 DAY, THESE LOW DSRs SHOULD BE REMOVED BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT BASED ON FACT, THEY ARE THE OPINION OF SOMEONE THAT HAS NO CLUE OF THE FACTS!!!!! IN FACT THE RATING THEY LEFT IS A OUTRIGHT LIE!!! HOW FAIR IS THAT!!!!!?????

[gophergamesplus]

Yup...absolute joke!!!. I lost my Top Seller rating ( and Discount ) Because of it. Buyers just don't realize our shipping costs to US. Also the FVF on shipping is ridiculous, I lose on shipping to the US and if I charge more for shipping, I'll lose sales, not fair at all. I'm sure Ebay could find a better solution on people that charge high shipping costs instead of punishing everyone. But then again...Ebay wouldn't make  a ton of money. Not Fair!!