Packages being returned, no longer able to go letter mail

[triber]

Canada Post is now returning craft booklets and paper sewing patterns that are sent letter mail saying that have to go package rate. For sellers selling low cost craft items, having to charge or pay for package rate now makes them far too expensive. Has anyone else had them returned? I am going to phone CP and see if I can see what is going on.

[mrdutch1001]

well, that is concerning because I use those oversize lettermail categories on a regular basis for sending out my patterns & craft related printer matter. Fo me personally, I guess it's a wait & see as the most recent item in this weight  category that was sent out to the USA(of which I have no idea if the buyer has received or not) I sent out the 3rd week of January...

[marnotom!]

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@byto253 wrote:

Does this include your cross stitch patterns?  That should be lettermail, it is a paper document, even height, etc.  A sewing pattern is paper as well and should pass through processing no problem.

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I'm not sure about that.  I don't think the postal system considers something that can be bought and sold to be a "document".  Cross-stitch patterns and sewing patterns don't qualify as Media Mail in the US, at any rate.

[intimewithmusic]

ANYONE SHIPPING POSTERS?

@fergua3    It sounds like you have a fantastic knowledge of posters! I'm learning but I'm confused.

I've been researching shipping them . I have to ship mine rolled. A few are expensive and to be shipped internationally.  They're longer than 60cm so they can't go Tracked PacketUS and a few need optional insurance. That leaves Expedited Parcel domestic or USA or Xpresspost Int. 

An extra heavy duty tube costs $5 if you buy small quantities. There's the additional $2 charge for the cylinder.  Basically it's about $10 for a solid container and your internal materials etc. 

A triangular box costs about the same as a tube but it's less likely to roll off the pile in shipping centres.  I had a factory made one.  I received a poster in it sent from the USA. It may have come via courier not USPS/CPost. It's 68cms long and  9 cms wide on all 3 sides.  This size is ideal.  I wanted to make them myself. 

The CP guidelines suggest any box (over 60 cms long) has to go Expedited Parcel USA. The minimum width for Exp P is 14cms.  A few days ago I took all this stuff (a heavy duty poster tube and a factory made trianular box) into two different postal outlets. 

The first outlet . I explained what I wanted to do. She took the factory box (68x9x9x9) and checked it through the computer.  I asked about the 14 cm minimum width. She said "You're right. The system won't let me enter these dimensions. The width must be 14cm or greater".

Before I made my boxes I went to 

The second outlet. I went through the exact same discussion and presented the box and the tube. This time the CP clerk said "These are both fine to ship through Expedited Parcel." I said "Even thought the triangular box is 9cms and not the 14 minumum.?" Yes, not problem and there is no additional $2 fee."

Both outlets were in different shopper's Drugmarts.  Both are as experienced as they come at Shoppers. 

 Does anyone know which representative was wrong? If not I'll just make one box 68x9x9x9 and try to ship an inexpensive poster first.

Thanks!

ITWM

[marnotom!]

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@lotzofuniquegoodies wrote:

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I recently ordered some plastic coin holder sheets from a local seller. They were dropped off on the Monday and arrived today.(Tuesday) Package was large kraft envelop and approx 1 cm thick. Was mailed with 6 permanent stamps and 1 x 48 cent stamp. No issues. 2 more packages to follow. Stay tuned. (w/o Cardboard)

Taking no chances, last Monday mailed a thin cookbook that would have fit as being under the 2 cm limit but sent expedited from Calgary to Edmonton. Parcel in Edm but not out yet for delivery. Parcel sent at same time to just outside of Mtl was  delivered yesterday(5 business days). All you can do right now is drop in box and hope for the best.

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Domestic mailings don't require customs forms so it doesn't matter if you send them lettermail if they fit the size and weight requirements.

International letters don't have provisions for customs documentation; small packets and parcels do.  If you're sending merchandise out of the country, you need a customs form and a letter won't have that.

[lotzofuniquegoodies]

@marnotom! 

For as long as I've been selling on eBay, over 16 years, I've only used letter to the USA twice. Never internationally. Everything goes with proper customs forms. Never had an issue with packages being returned. The concern seems to be (for others) are packages that look like they should pass as "letter mail" but are being rejected. Not including the proper customs forms is at a sellers discretion. I consider it definitely taking a chance so have never done so. Similar mindset for many to tracked vs untracked.

-Lotz

[byto253]

It may be that the 2nd rep is more senior and has the experience with parameters that don't mesh well in the new system.   I am lucky to have an incredible manager who has an amazingly positive outlook on everything - his customers are basically a cult following! - and he is exasperated with the new system.   

EDIT:  Just to note that I have had this situation.  At one Shoppers the clerk insisted that Peurto Rico was international and US small packet was not an option.  I just went to my regular guy, and the system was defaulting to that as well but he knew better and after some fiddling was able to get the correct parameters into the system for it to correctly be shipped as US small packet delivered by USPS. 

[femmefan1946]

@byto253   Do you work in a PO too? Having two workers (whether post office or postal counter) would be such an advantage for us all.

Even if you and dinomyte have disagreements it would be helpful.

[byto253]

@femmefan1946   Never a postie, blissfully retired!  Just lucky to have an amazing PO Manager.    

[recped]

For those that care you can look up a bunch of posts on this board from 2005 when this issue first came up when Canada Post started this policy.

Here is an example for @tobyshitzu who was a regular poster of quality info back in the day.

https://community.ebay.ca/t5/Archive-1/Canada-Post-official-explanation-for-letterpost-change/m-p/19...

I did skim over the replies in the other thread, I didn't see if my question about customs forms being added was answered. If they were then that is the obvious reason why these things are being returned.

If there was no customs form or other obvious reason then Canada Post must be ramping up enforcement of this now 17 year old policy.

[dinomitesales]

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EDIT:  Just to note that I have had this situation.  At one Shoppers the clerk insisted that Peurto Rico was international and US small packet was not an option.  I just went to my regular guy, and the system was defaulting to that as well but he knew better and after some fiddling was able to get the correct parameters into the system for it to correctly be shipped as US small packet delivered by USPS. 

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This happens because Canada Post lists Puerto Rico as an international country, but also considers it a territory of the United States. The only reason that it's listed as a country is because of the Priority Worldwide service that gets handed off to FedEx. Newer or untrained postal clerks will get confused because Puerto Rico shows as a separate country in the dropdown menu but they don't know that you only select that if it's going Priority Worldwide. For any other shipping service you just select United States in the dropdown and enter the appropriate postal code.

[dinomitesales]

Just wanted to weigh in here - as many others have stated, not being able to send non-documents via international Letter-post is nothing new, but I can confirm that for the first time they seem to be enforcing it HARD. I regularly took the risk with my own merchandise but just yesterday I had a bubble envelope containing a small video game cartridge returned to me with the aforementioned sticker telling me it needs to go as a Small Packet. This item was sent out Jan. 21, so I'm expecting to see a few more coming back to me. Is this just a temporary crackdown, or is it going to continue for the foreseeable future? I have no idea, but they must have some criteria they are using to identify what is and isn't allowed, and I suspect it's coming down to the rigidity of the contents of the letters (which would explain why things like posters shipped with a hard  backing are being kicked back).

This seems to have all initiated in conjunction with a memo sent to post offices on February 4th reminding them that non-documents cannot go by Letter-post. These reminders are sent out several times a year and are therefore nothing new, but it seems this time Canada Post has begun actually enforcing it.

[recped]

Another possible reason for the crackdown is the changes in the UK/EU with regard to the elimination of the free import limits and the collection of VAT from the foreign exporters. Where this has happened they really want to seperate the streams and are all desperate to collect every penny of VAT possible while streamlining the logistics.

Here is a link to an info release form the UPU congress last year.

https://www.upu.int/en/Blogs/Post-Customs-cooperation-in-a-new-regulatory-era

Despite the rapid speed of changes within the postal sector and the profound impact of the COVID-19 pandemic, all postal operators have made enormous efforts to comply with these increased EAD and customs requirements. For example, since January 2020, the number of designated postal operators capable of transmitting electronic customs declaration data has increased twofold: from 89 to 188. Nevertheless, many UPU member countries are still struggling to comply with EAD requirements for all items dispatched, owing to several financial, legal, operational and technical chal­lenges.

[vintagenorth]

@dinomitesales 

Hi, just wondering, when your item was returned, was the postage cancelled and now you have to use a new envelope and Sm Pkt postage or are you able to just add the difference in postage?

[mrdutch1001]

I can fully understand video games, CDs etc being returned/not accepted within lettermail, but patterns, magazines & similar are printed matter and that is a whole lot different than merchandise such as games & Cds

[lotzofuniquegoodies]

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@dinomitesales wrote:

Just wanted to weigh in here - as many others have stated, not being able to send non-documents via international Letter-post is nothing new, but I can confirm that for the first time they seem to be enforcing it HARD. I regularly took the risk with my own merchandise but just yesterday I had a bubble envelope containing a small video game cartridge returned to me with the aforementioned sticker telling me it needs to go as a Small Packet. This item was sent out Jan. 21, so I'm expecting to see a few more coming back to me. Is this just a temporary crackdown, or is it going to continue for the foreseeable future? I have no idea, but they must have some criteria they are using to identify what is and isn't allowed, and I suspect it's coming down to the rigidity of the contents of the letters (which would explain why things like posters shipped with a hard  backing are being kicked back).

This seems to have all initiated in conjunction with a memo sent to post offices on February 4th reminding them that non-documents cannot go by Letter-post. These reminders are sent out several times a year and are therefore nothing new, but it seems this time Canada Post has begun actually enforcing it.

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What would the call be on a couple of family photos sent to Nana internationally with a cardboard back and front so they didn't get bent?

-Lotz

[fh991586]

As far as Canada Post is concerned, a document has no commercial value in itself.  It's a document, like a personal letter, family pictures or a printed contract.  Its purpose is not to be sent as if it was a sold merchandise.  Hence the poster or sewing patterns are not documents that would fit into lettermail internationally, but merchandise because of them being sold.

[marnotom!]

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@fh991586 wrote:

As far as Canada Post is concerned, a document has no commercial value in itself.  It's a document, like a personal letter, family pictures or a printed contract.  Its purpose is not to be sent as if it was a sold merchandise.  Hence the poster or sewing patterns are not documents that would fit into lettermail internationally, but merchandise because of them being sold.

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Nicely put.  I'd say the rule of thumb is that if the item needs a customs form, it can't be sent as an international letter.

[marnotom!]

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@recped wrote:

I did skim over the replies in the other thread, I didn't see if my question about customs forms being added was answered. If they were then that is the obvious reason why these things are being returned.

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The other thread has a picture of a big official looking sticker slapped on top of the usual "return to sender" tag with wording to the effect that the item doesn't conform to international lettermail standards and it has to be sent as a small packet or parcel with a customs form.  If Canada Post has gone to the trouble of getting a schwack of these stickers made up, it reinforces the hypothesis that CPC is now in hardcore mode enforcement.  I suspect the same sticker would be used whether or not the lettermail item had a customs form on it.

[recped]

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@lotzofuniquegoodies wrote:

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@dinomitesales wrote:

Just wanted to weigh in here - as many others have stated, not being able to send non-documents via international Letter-post is nothing new, but I can confirm that for the first time they seem to be enforcing it HARD. I regularly took the risk with my own merchandise but just yesterday I had a bubble envelope containing a small video game cartridge returned to me with the aforementioned sticker telling me it needs to go as a Small Packet. This item was sent out Jan. 21, so I'm expecting to see a few more coming back to me. Is this just a temporary crackdown, or is it going to continue for the foreseeable future? I have no idea, but they must have some criteria they are using to identify what is and isn't allowed, and I suspect it's coming down to the rigidity of the contents of the letters (which would explain why things like posters shipped with a hard  backing are being kicked back).

This seems to have all initiated in conjunction with a memo sent to post offices on February 4th reminding them that non-documents cannot go by Letter-post. These reminders are sent out several times a year and are therefore nothing new, but it seems this time Canada Post has begun actually enforcing it.

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What would the call be on a couple of family photos sent to Nana internationally with a cardboard back and front so they didn't get bent?

-Lotz

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Back around the time of this original policy (2005) I wanted to send a 7" vinyl single to Italy, it was a high value item for which the buyer wanted and was willing to pay for Registered (I was happy in that case to go along but normally I would never use Registered). This was back in the days when I was still shipping via an actual Canada Post retail counter.

I got asked about the contents and simply said "I'm sending a couple of pictures to my sister/grandmother" (I don't remember which). It was accepted because non-commercial "paper" items were allowed as the orginal rule was written to exclude "goods" and "non-paper".

If I had said it's record for a friend I would have been told to use a different service.

Subsequently I sent a few more things with a customs declaration of "Printed Matter - No Commercial Value" those were acceptable as well (should be obvious to readers that I was lying!).

By the end of 2006 I had stopped using Canada Post for anything except domestic shipments so the issue never came up again for me.

[recped]

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@mrdutch1001 wrote:

I can fully understand video games, CDs etc being returned/not accepted within lettermail, but patterns, magazines & similar are printed matter and that is a whole lot different than merchandise such as games & Cds

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"merchandise" = "goods" = Any physical item sent as a result of a commercial transaction between the parties.

It's the commercial value that is the concern.