RE: German Packaging Act circumvention by German customers via parcel forwarding services?

[darak10]

A question for the ebay help / legal team and/or anyone else in the know - personally I'll be shutting down all sales into the German market to comply with the act, but this did cross my mind as many folks around the world do this now, and even some German customers did this with me during the worst covid shutdown times - use a parcel forwarding service to get around shipping blocks / countries with poor quality postal services.   Is it expected German customers will begin using parcel forwarding services in Florida, Delaware or Oregon (where they all seem to be located) to get around the act, and if so, what is ebay's response?  Will sellers be liable in any way for any contravention of the act if German customers begin doing this as a result of sellers ending sales to their country because of enactment of the act?  

[pjcdn2005]

velvet@ebay 

I believe that on the .com board you said that sellers were not required to register for the German packaging program for buyers that used freight forwarders.   As far as you know is that still the case?

@darak10 

I can't see sellers being responsible in that situation because they are not shipping to Gemany and in fact have no way of knowing if a package will be forwarded or where it will be forwarded to.  Just because a buyer is registered in Germany doesn't mean that the package will be forwarded there. 

[ypdc_dennis]

If you ship to a forwarding service, your requirements as a Seller stop there. You are not exporting to Germany (only to where the forwarder is located).

If a German buyer decides to use a forwarder they are the ones who are importing and responsible for any recycling requirements.  The delivery to the forwarder means it stops being a mail order purchase at that point and becomes something owned by the buyer.

...

[darak10]

true, but Id like to hear it from them directly.  I dont go on the us board, do you have a link for that particular thread?  Id prefer to not get caught with my pants down in a situation like this.  

[darak10]

I dont know if this law would support what you are saying, as all anyone needs to do is click on the buyer username to find out where they actually are.   I also cant see the german govt going to the customer and saying 'hey bud, pay up for importing this item and disposing of the package because you used a parcel forwarding service to buy from a company that doesnt want to pay our fee to sell into our market'.  Its an interesting loophole that as it stands is too open ended for my liking without further clarification.  I can see the parcel forwarding company just wanting to pass the buck down the line.   It also makes ebay open to liability as the item came from here originally.  Some clarification from ebay and their legal team would great to have on this issue.   

[marnotom!]

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@darak10 wrote:

I dont know if this law would support what you are saying, as all anyone needs to do is click on the buyer username to find out where they actually are.   I also cant see the german govt going to the customer and saying 'hey bud, pay up for importing this item and disposing of the package because you used a parcel forwarding service to buy from a company that doesnt want to pay our fee to sell into our market'.  Its an interesting loophole that as it stands is too open ended for my liking without further clarification.  I can see the parcel forwarding company just wanting to pass the buck down the line.   It also makes ebay open to liability as the item came from here originally.  Some clarification from ebay and their legal team would great to have on this issue.   

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Generally speaking, the importer is responsible for making sure that anything they import complies with any rules and regulations that their country may apply, and I can't see it being any different when it comes to the packaging of items that are exported to Germany.  So if the German authorities are going to "go after" anyone who imports anything that has packaging that isn't compliant with the Act,  I think it's going to be the buyer.  What grounds would German authorities have for extraditing a middle-income schlub from Armpit, Arkansas over a 50 euro item that was technically sold on American soil with American laws applying?

If the buyer has a hissy fit over said non-compliant shipment, refuses the item and tries to file a case of non-delivery on eBay, they're not going to be successful if a forwarding agent handled the shipment.

[velvet@ebay]

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@pjcdn2005 wrote:

velvet@ebay 

I believe that on the .com board you said that sellers were not required to register for the German packaging program for buyers that used freight forwarders.   As far as you know is that still the case?

@darak10 

I can't see sellers being responsible in that situation because they are not shipping to Gemany and in fact have no way of knowing if a package will be forwarded or where it will be forwarded to.  Just because a buyer is registered in Germany doesn't mean that the package will be forwarded there. 

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@pjcdn2005 I did get some questions answered on the .com boards but I'm still waiting to hear back about how this will affect freight forwarding. Once I have a response to share there, I'll follow-up here as well. Thank you for the tag!

[velvet@ebay]

Hi everyone! I wanted to follow-up with what I heard back regarding how this affects freight forwarding sales. I'll start by reiterating that this only affects business sellers. If you're not a business seller, it won't affect you.

The mail forwarding company is obligated to register within LUCID. The seller is obligated to collect the LUCID ID from the mail forwarding company. This number would be necessary should eBay ask them to implement it within their eBay account settings. There are no other obligations than asking the mail forwarding company for the LUCID ID number though, should eBay require it. 

[pjcdn2005]

velvet@ebay 

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velvet@ebay wrote:

Hi everyone! I wanted to follow-up with what I heard back regarding how this affects freight forwarding sales. I'll start by reiterating that this only affects business sellers. If you're not a business seller, it won't affect you.

velvet@ebay 

What do you mean by being a business seller? Those who have a business can be registered on ebay.ca and .com as a business seller or they can have just a personal account.  Are you saying this affects only those who have an 'official' ebay business account?

The mail forwarding company is obligated to register within LUCID. The seller is obligated to collect the LUCID ID from the mail forwarding company. This number would be necessary should eBay ask them to implement it within their eBay account settings. There are no other obligations than asking the mail forwarding company for the LUCID ID number though, should eBay require it. 

The 'seller' is obligated to get the LUCID ID from the forwarder if ebay asks for it?   Are you sure that isn't the buyer that is supposed to get that information?  The seller isn't told if the address is for a freight forwarder and even if they suspect that it is, they don't know the company name or contact information.  Buyers deal with a forwarding company, not the sellers and we could be dealing with a multitude of them. 

[reallynicestamps]

as all anyone needs to do is click on the buyer username to find out where they actually are.

No.

That shows  where the buyer is registered.

We've seen many Canadian sellers here complaining that they cannot register for Managed Payments because they are registered in the USA but actually live in Canada.

And a, say Sri Lankan, student in Canada may be using a freight forwarder  for ordering from a US seller who does not ship internationally.

Most of the time you would be right, but people travel for jobs, education, or are refugees from the Wagner Battalion.

[darak10]

true, but that's not the issue.  the issue is still whether Germans can get around their legislation by using parcel forwarding companies to buy from non GPA compliant intl sellers- it sounds like they can, but ebays answer so far is clear as mud and doesnt directly answer the question - they appear to be saying that parcel forwarding companies have to register, and that there is some complicated process around us getting a number or something in order to ship....I dont really understand their response.  Its seems like a convoluted workaround has or is being developed, and what that means for those of us on the ground right now, at least how Im interpreting it anyways, is that I shouldnt touch them and just cancel the transaction if their user id is registered in Germany.  If their username states they are registered in Germany, and I sell to that individual, I am opening myself up to liability under their legislation and Im not interested in doing that.    

[shallow_karl]

I'm thrilled if foreign customers have forwarders.  I have a reliable courier for the rest of the world that works though Belgium Post but even then, I WILL not ship to certain countries where you cannot rely on competent mail systems.  You want to know which ones?  Check the rates UPS/FEDEX charge for various countries and ask yourself why they are so high.  SImple; theft, fraud, incompetence.

[velvet@ebay]

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@pjcdn2005 wrote:

velvet@ebay 

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velvet@ebay wrote:

Hi everyone! I wanted to follow-up with what I heard back regarding how this affects freight forwarding sales. I'll start by reiterating that this only affects business sellers. If you're not a business seller, it won't affect you.

velvet@ebay 

What do you mean by being a business seller? Those who have a business can be registered on ebay.ca and .com as a business seller or they can have just a personal account.  Are you saying this affects only those who have an 'official' ebay business account?

The mail forwarding company is obligated to register within LUCID. The seller is obligated to collect the LUCID ID from the mail forwarding company. This number would be necessary should eBay ask them to implement it within their eBay account settings. There are no other obligations than asking the mail forwarding company for the LUCID ID number though, should eBay require it. 

The 'seller' is obligated to get the LUCID ID from the forwarder if ebay asks for it?   Are you sure that isn't the buyer that is supposed to get that information?  The seller isn't told if the address is for a freight forwarder and even if they suspect that it is, they don't know the company name or contact information.  Buyers deal with a forwarding company, not the sellers and we could be dealing with a multitude of them. 

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Hi @pjcdn2005! Yes, if you're registered as a business seller, then this applies to you. As for your second question, it would be up to the seller. If you happen to have a buyer in Germany using a mail forwarding company, and Germany happens to contact us to get the LUCID ID, then you could contact the mail forwarding company you shipped to (run an internet search of the address to locate the company info) and get the LUCID ID from them. 

[ricarmic]

Hi velvet@ebay 

I'm sorry but this is very confusing to me.

"If you happen to have a buyer in Germany using a mail forwarding company, and Germany happens to contact us to get the LUCID ID, then you could contact the mail forwarding company you shipped to (run an internet search of the address to locate the company info) and get the LUCID ID from them. "

As pjcn mentioned, we don't even know that it is a forwarding company, nor what country the buyer is from when they choose to use a forwarding company. 

I may be naive about how the freight forwarders work, but I'm assuming they repackage/combine shipments into whatever gets sent to the recipient. I'd presume they have their own "return address" on the parcel somewhere.

If germany were to "follow up" they should be following up with the "business" that sent the stuff, which in this case is the forwarder, who would then provide them with their LUCID ID.

The only way Germany would even know if it came from eBay is if the receipt or branded packaging were included.

I also don't understand why an ebay seller would put one freight forwarders LUCID id into our own account, this would only be valid if a seller was using but one freight forwarder, some of us could be using 100s of them...without knowing so.

Personally I think the odds of Germany asking ebay about the situation are exceptionally low anyway, so this is probably a needless worry but I'm confused how the accountabilities are aligned if it were to happen.

I would think Germany should be looking to the buyer in this situation as they're purposefully working to avoid the rules.

[velvet@ebay]

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@ricarmic wrote:

Hi velvet@ebay 

I'm sorry but this is very confusing to me.

"If you happen to have a buyer in Germany using a mail forwarding company, and Germany happens to contact us to get the LUCID ID, then you could contact the mail forwarding company you shipped to (run an internet search of the address to locate the company info) and get the LUCID ID from them. "

As pjcn mentioned, we don't even know that it is a forwarding company, nor what country the buyer is from when they choose to use a forwarding company. 

I may be naive about how the freight forwarders work, but I'm assuming they repackage/combine shipments into whatever gets sent to the recipient. I'd presume they have their own "return address" on the parcel somewhere.

If germany were to "follow up" they should be following up with the "business" that sent the stuff, which in this case is the forwarder, who would then provide them with their LUCID ID.

The only way Germany would even know if it came from eBay is if the receipt or branded packaging were included.

I also don't understand why an ebay seller would put one freight forwarders LUCID id into our own account, this would only be valid if a seller was using but one freight forwarder, some of us could be using 100s of them...without knowing so.

Personally I think the odds of Germany asking ebay about the situation are exceptionally low anyway, so this is probably a needless worry but I'm confused how the accountabilities are aligned if it were to happen.

I would think Germany should be looking to the buyer in this situation as they're purposefully working to avoid the rules.

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Hi @ricarmic! Germany is following up with the seller because they were the ones to ship the item. Anyone can run an internet search on a buyers address and if it's a mail forwarding company, it's pretty obvious as it will bring up the business.

If we contact you about a sale, asking for the LUCID ID, then you could run a search on the address the buyer used at checkout, to contact the mail forwarding company for their LUCID ID. You would then provide that back to the request you received from eBay.

I don't imagine this situation will come up often in the grand scheme of things either, but it's something to keep in mind and be prepared for should eBay contact you about a sale. 

[msmaggie060]

velvet@ebay 
Hi, how would we contact the forwarding company, we would only have a ship to address, which is all eBay gives us. So you are saying that we need to write a letter to them and than hope that we receive an answer from them. What if we don't hear back from them, will we be penalized in some way?

Doesn't really matter to me, just a general question, I will no longer be selling to Germany anyway. Not worth the aggrevation.

[velvet@ebay]

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@msmaggie060 wrote:

velvet@ebay 
Hi, how would we contact the forwarding company, we would only have a ship to address, which is all eBay gives us. So you are saying that we need to write a letter to them and than hope that we receive an answer from them. What if we don't hear back from them, will we be penalized in some way?

Doesn't really matter to me, just a general question, I will no longer be selling to Germany anyway. Not worth the aggrevation.

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Hey @msmaggie060! When you run an internet search and locate the mail forwarding company, they'll most likely have a phone number listed. I would suggest placing a call to them rather than sending a letter. Again, I don't think this scenario will come up often, but should it, then I hope this info helps. 😊

[ricarmic]

velvet@ebay 

Hi again, my concern really remains because in my eyes, I only sold something to someone in the USA (or wherever the forwarding company is). I have NO idea that the buyer is from Germany.

My goal is simply to block ALL German buyers to avoid any problems, and I have specifically added Germany as a blocked country, so my corollary question is:

If I have specifically blocked Germany as a sell to country, does eBay use the address of the buyer, or the registration country of the buyer. If the registration country is used then I'm covered because it does not matter what address they give me or where because I've blocked the "registration country" as opposed to the shipping address.

I'm of the hope this is the case, that will solve all the potential problems for us!

Let me know when you can, and have a great weekend!!!

[recped]

If I have specifically blocked Germany as a sell to country, does eBay use the address of the buyer, or the registration country of the buyer. If the registration country is used then I'm covered because it does not matter what address they give me or where because I've blocked the "registration country" as opposed to the shipping address.

eBay has always used the buyers Primary Ship To Address.

When you block ANY country you are ONLY blocking the shipping destination, the buyers registration country is irrelvant.

[hold-my-chawowah]

I was reading this and thinking "this will never affect me,"  and BINGO:  I have a sale to Germany.  It's not via eBay but through a smaller venu.  Does this mean I can't ship to my German buyer who has paid without a problem.  I also checked and there seems to be no issue creating a label via Shippo.

The only place I've seen any mention of this is here on this board and I'm guessing that very few people shipping to Germany know anything about it so how can they stop all those parcels and fine all those people?

Any advice?